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TEPaul

Davis Love's decision on #18!
« on: September 20, 2004, 12:53:06 PM »
I just said on another thread that Davis Love's decision to not ask for or even apparently consider relief on #18 (under Rule 24-2) was perhaps one of the most remarkable, integrity laden and "class" moves I've ever seen in professional tournament golf!

There seemed no question at all from anyone who was in the proximity that had Love simply stated he wished to hit a fade from his original lie his left foot would've been right on that immovable obstruction and he would've been granted relief from even the most "conservative interpreter" Rules official and gotten his ball onto the first cut of rough! There's nothing even remotely "unreasonable" about what Love could have asked for ("unreasonable" being the test in the "exception" to Rule 24-2).

But Love said later he didn't and wouldn't have really considered hitting a fade to that left pin position so he didn't even bother to ask for or even consider asking for relief although clearly he was aware he could have! No one but Love could've known that and no one would've even dreamed of questioning him on it anyway!

I've seen a lot of golfers do some things in golf that fall into the category of true integrity but that move of Love's just may have taken the cake!

I'm going to write him or email him and tell him that and I see no reason why we all shouldn't. Things like that are what make golf so fine!

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2004, 12:56:12 PM »
Tom -- I agree completely.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2004, 12:59:24 PM »
It's nice to see someone act within the spirit of the rules, rather than just the letter of the law. Doesn't surprise me at all with DLIII, but, then again, I've always been a fan.

Someone out there will probably use this situation as evidence of how he lacks a "killer instinct." :P Or the fact that he halved a match with Clarke, ranked lower than him on the all important golf world rankings, as evidence that he choked.

Golf's a wonderful game, if you let it be so.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2004, 01:02:53 PM »
that was a class move by davis love - all the way

it was also a class move - apparently - by darren clarke to miss that kick-in.

based on darren's response, and hug of davis, i'd say he missed that putt on purpose - which was way cool in my book

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JohnV

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2004, 01:12:53 PM »
Tom, I made a similar comment in another thread.  Also kudos to Hal Sutton for coming up and telling DLIII that what he did reflected his integrity.  The way Hal was lurking as Davis was playing I wasn't sure if he felt that way, but he obviously did.

I don't think that any of the announcers would have acted so honorably.  Rolfing said he definitely would have stepped on it.  Miller seemed to question why DLIII didn't do something to get relief.

I think Clarke tried on that putt.  Remember that the cup wasn't fully decided at that point (although there was little doubt.)  But I also think he wasn't terribly upset at missing it.  Both of them shot 68 even with the bogies on the last hole.  Good golf on that course yesterday.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 01:30:14 PM by John Vander Borght »

TEPaul

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2004, 01:15:50 PM »
"Someone out there will probably use this situation as evidence of how he lacks a "killer instinct."  Or the fact that he halved a match with Clarke, ranked lower than him on the all important golf world rankings, as evidence that he choked."

GeorgeP:

You may say 'someone out there' but I wouldn't be that general. I'd pretty much just say it like it is-----eg. redanman!!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 01:23:42 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2004, 01:21:16 PM »
"it was also a class move - apparently - by darren clarke to miss that kick-in.
based on darren's response, and hug of davis, i'd say he missed that putt on purpose - which was way cool in my book."

Paul:

I wonder if that's so!? If so that would make that whole thing just that much better and more remarkable. If all that did transpire like that the whole thing is so "class-act" ladened now Clarke may just take it to the extreme and never admit it!!   ;)

Apparently Love said to Clarke (they're very good friends) that if he missed that putt on purpose he was going to punch Clarke in the nose!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 01:27:02 PM by TEPaul »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2004, 01:21:42 PM »
Sorry, Paul Richards, but nobody at that level tries to miss a putt on the 18th green. And it was no kick in. Besides, we all know you're kidding.

At the press conference, when asked about the stance and relief, Davis Love said that "Mark Rolfing must have a very wide stance." Immediately after on The Golf Channel, Mr. Smiling Hawaiian was very defensive about it. For his part, Love at the press conference said that it was no big deal and that no one on the team would have asked for a drop. And by the way, TEP, Love's shot selection and non-request for a drop was based on the lie, which was so hairy he said he couldn't have hit more than a six-iron, and in no way a high fade to the green. I also think that Love's class act was one of many examples of why golf (and these matches) are so cool.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2004, 01:23:46 PM »
tom

that makes the whole thing even better! ;) :)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Brent Hutto

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2004, 01:34:48 PM »
Just didn't cut my tee shot. I hit it kind of straight down the middle.
There's the quote I was hoping to see. I thought when he stepped up to the tee with a 3-wood that cutting it back into the slope was what he had in mind. If he had executed the shot he had in mind, right there on live TV, maybe Johnny Miller would have had to acknowledge that the hole was difficult but entirely playable.

TEPaul

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2004, 02:18:28 PM »
"And by the way, TEP, Love's shot selection and non-request for a drop was based on the lie, which was so hairy he said he couldn't have hit more than a six-iron, and in no way a high fade to the green. I also think that Love's class act was one of many examples of why golf (and these matches) are so cool."

Brad:

But that's precisely the point here, isn't it? This is about what Love said later and what he didn't do and didn't ask for. But that in no way whatsoever means Love couldn't have asked for relief under Rule 24-2 and almost without a scintilla of a doubt would have received relief under Rule 24-2!!

I wasn't there around that ball or next to Love but maybe you were. If Love could've gotten a normal high faded 6 iron (forget about that poor lie in rough) to the green and thereby would've had his left foot touching that immovable obstruction I seriously doubt there's a rules official in the entire world who would've denied him relief under the necessary "test' to the "exception" to Rule 24-2 that that stance and proposed play was "unnecessarily abnormal" OR "unnreasonable", particularly at a time like that when a golfer just may reasonably try a really high risk play (such as on the 18th hole of an "all square match" in the Ryder Cup from even a poor lie in the rough)!

Furthermore, the exception to relief under Rule 24-2 talks about (a) interference to a player making a stroke by something other than the immovable obstruction in question, OR (very important) (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur only through use of an unnecessarily abnormal STANCE, swing or direction of play.

In Love's situation and in my officiating experience, simply a poor lie in rough like the one he had is not considered to be "interference" to a player making a "normal STROKE" and there could be nothing "unnecessarily abnormal" about Love taking a six iron from that poor lie in an attempt to hit a high faded 6 iron, again, particularly in a situation like that.

I had a discussion and debate on this kind of rules point (and rules decision) with one of our GOLFCLUBATLAS contributors over on that Leith Rules website about how most all really good rules officials take the entire situation at hand into consideration. Perhaps amazingly to some taking the entire situation at hand into consideration also means making some subjective judgements about the player in question and his particular capabilities (in this sense not all rules decisions regarding all levels of players may end up being the same!).

In my opinion, a really competent rules official in that situation with Love (if asked by Love for 24-2 relief would NOT consider what someone like Brad Klein or Tom Paul was or wasn't capable of in that specific situation--vis-a-vis what's "unnreasonable" or an abnormal STANCE, swing and direction of play") he would consder what Davis Love 3rd was capable of or not in determining what constituted an "unnecessarily abnormal STANCE, swing and direction of play and if it was clearly unnreasonable for him (Love and not Klein or Paul) to make a stroke because of intereference by anything other than the immovable obstruction!

Most of those officials were probably tour pro officials and God knows they understand from experience that some of these players (Wood's et al) are more than capable of hitting shots that some of us may think unnreasonable or abnormal! And a really good rules official will reflect that reality in the on-course rules decisions they make!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 02:36:06 PM by TEPaul »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2004, 02:30:56 PM »
I see no reason for over-emphasizing being honest. Sure it is great to see the integrity held-up, but making too big a deal about it, only shows how rare it is. What does that say about all the other golfers in this world? Dan King, knows!

ForkaB

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2004, 02:42:52 PM »
What does that say about all the other golfers in this world?


Adam

99+% of the golfers in the world wouldn't even have a clue what this conversation was about. :(

TEPaul

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2004, 02:45:00 PM »
Adam Clayman:

I've done about 15 years of rules officiating now on a pretty good level and believe me what Love did on #18 and the reasons he did it are rare! What does that say about most all golfers, in this case apparently some very experienced professional golfers (particularly those announcers some of which have won OPENS)? It says it's become almost completely common practice to very consciously use the letter of the Rules of Golf and not the spirit of them. What Love did yesterday frankly I've absolutely never seen before and frankly never even thought of. Not only was what Love did a rare example of integrity to play by the spirit of the game and not just the letter of the Rules of the game but it was frankly an education in Rules application to me!

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2004, 02:47:12 PM »
Bravo to Davis -- although:

"You might as well praise me for not robbing a bank."
           -- Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2004, 03:04:45 PM »
Dan:

Honestly, maybe I saw something that no one else did yesterday or maybe I'm wrong or making too much of this but the decision Love made on #18 and particularly the reasons why doesn't even fall into the same zip code as that famous quote by Bobby Jones.

This isn't even remotely about whether Love would've been cheating in some way ('robbing a bank') if he'd asked for Rule 24-2 relief and been granted it. If that'd happened there wouldn't be a person in the world viewing that situation who would've thought a thing of it. Asking for relief under Rule 24-2 in a situation like Love's yesterday and establishing the reason for it by taking perhaps a bit of a fading stance is something everyone I've ever seen does and would do. To be honest, in years of golf and also years of officiating I've virtually never seen any player do what Love did for the specific reasons he did it! And in that way this incident just may be not only one of the most impressive I've ever seen but also one of the most educational. What Love apparently did yesterday is basically to first and foremost be true to himself! There's no one else who could've possibly understood the reason Davis Love didn't ask for relief he clearly would've gotten except Davis Love himself!

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2004, 03:08:45 PM »
"The rules of golf are there to protect you, not for you to gain by them."

Harvey Penick
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

A_Clay_Man

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2004, 03:10:19 PM »
Tom- I thought the rule states that the player must line-up with the intended shot.

I haven't officiated, but I've seen regular folk (non-pro or highly ranked amateurs) try to use their cunning, to get a drop not entitled to. I've seen pros knock leaves off of trees, with practice swings, and not call a penalty on themselves.  Likey they didn't even know they violated a rule.

I agree it was great that Davis golfed under the rules and didn't try to manufacture a stance that would've given him the preferred lie, but Dan Kelly's quote illustrates the proper level of accolade.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 03:11:12 PM by Adam Clayman »

tlavin

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2004, 03:11:18 PM »
Sorry to rain on the ethics/gentleman's game thread here, but I'd much rather be talking about what a winner DLIII is.  Unfortunately, like many of the rest of the Tour, he is a checkbook guy.  Sure, the rainbow came out at Winged Foot and he won the least significant major.  Sure he had that great final round at the Players a couple years back where the rest of the field folded like a pup tent collection and sure, he's won at Hilton Head a bunch of times, but Love strikes me as the poster child for why we fail at the Ryder Cup.  Gentleman or not, he just ain't a grinder and you need to be a grinder at the Ryder Cup.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2004, 03:15:08 PM »
And I take the oppostive view. I'd rather our US players be known as honest sportsmen first, and winners second.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

tlavin

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2004, 03:17:41 PM »
And I take the oppostive view. I'd rather our US players be known as honest sportsmen first, and winners second.

Rich,

That's all well and good and I don't mean to infer the contrary, just that I get a little tired of hearing about gentlemen who don't win.  It's like the football coach who molds fine young men who can't win football games.  I want both.

JohnV

Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2004, 03:18:24 PM »
Tom, I agree with everything you have said here.  Davis was the only person who would have known that there was no way he would have played the shot that would have given him relief and yet he still chose not to do it.  It would have been entirely reasonable for him to ask and based on what I've read any official would have given him relief.  But he knew it "wasn't right" not that it "wasn't allowed" and as such he made the personal choice not to ask.  That is admirable.  Bobby Jones' quote came after he called a penalty on himself that no one else had seen.  That is definitely different in that what he had done wasn't allowed and to not call it also isn't allowed.

Without anyone asking he met the standard of "if the obstruction wasn't there would you try to hit that shot" and answered that no he wouldn't so he shouldn't take relief.  I have asked that question of players in the past and in more than one case the player has agreed that he wouldn't try that, but if he says he would and it is reasonable you would give him relief.  In this case I doubt any official would even ask because it was so obvious that he wasn't doing anything unusual, but he still took the high road.  That is admirable in my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 03:19:05 PM by John Vander Borght »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2004, 03:20:44 PM »
But it IS a Gentleman's game, isn't it?  I'd rather be a fan of a DLIII or that LPGA pro who called 18-2 on herself at the LPGA championship in 2003 when only she saw her ball move than a fan of a "grinder" who uses a more "advantageous" interpreation of the rules....

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2004, 03:24:01 PM »
Let's put it this way -- Pete Rose still has millions of fans. And Rose and DLIII wouldn't understand each other if they lived to be a million.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Davis Love's decision on #18!
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2004, 03:30:46 PM »
Rick,
A hearty "Amen" to your posts!