[Patrick_Mucci]

At what velocity (in club lengths) does wind go from being a design asset to a design liability ?

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

I've never taken any of your questions to mean that you don't already have an answer.

 Is this question truly quantifyable? Can a number be assigned to the wind as it pertains to design intent? Would it not fall into a category of personal preference except in the case of wind moving balls on greens that are ridiculously fast?

I'll be interested to hear other responses, as I probably am missing the true intent of the question.  

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe Hancock,

That doesn't surprise me  

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
  I'm not sure what you are getting at with your question. I would say if a site had a 4 club wind on a regular basis, it wouldn't be a design liability, but a reason not to build a course there in the first place.
   I enjoy golfing in a 2-3 club wind, but beyond that it is more survival than golf (at least for my game, such as it is).

[A_Clay_Man]

Ive seen the monterey peninsula courses get to a 5-6 club wind.

To experience those, and conclude that the design quality was somehow altered, is preposterous.

But that shouldn't surprise you either.  

Seems likely there's a formula for width and wind speed. Why anyone would want to follow it, is another issue.

[LenBum]

 At what velocity (in club lengths) does wind go from being a design asset to a design liability ?


It doesn't..........................

[Steve Curry]

Sorry Pat,  This was the first thought I had when I read your post...

BRIDGEKEEPER: "What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?"
ARTHUR: "What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"

I presume you mean a European, steady wind and I say 2 clubs for the pros(they melt if they have to think that hard) and endless for those of us who can hit near putt like shots with all clubs in the bag, the daisy cutter.  I draw the line though if the wind is stong enough to pick my ball up and carry it elsewhere.  

Steve

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

It depends on the golf course.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I don't know--your question may be a little vague or something along those lines.

It reminds me of the time I was a kid in Daytona Beach Florida and sometimes on Sunday evenings my Dad would take us all down to this old fish restaurant on the Inland waterway under the bridge over the inland waterway to New Symrna Beach. In those days there was very little down there and the traffic was very light, so light in fact Dad used to stop on the middle of the bridge at the control house on the bridge where the guy who opened the bridge for boats was.

Dad said to the bridge operator something like "What's going on?" The bridge operator said some of these northern tourist coming down here drive me crazy and Dad said; "What do you mean? The bridge operator said a Jewish couple from New York just came over the bridge and asked him how to get to Florida. The bridge operator asked them where they were headed and they said Miami. The bridge operator said if you've just come from New York you've been in Florida for about the last 175 miles. The Jewish couple just looked at him and said; Oh no we haven't and we just want to know how to get to Florida. So the Bridge operator told them to just go over the bridge and take a left and they'd find Florida right down that road about 275 miles!  

[paul cowley]

 pat ....the obvious answer is one club ....that being the putter.

when the design speed of the green is exceeded by wind velocity and the ball won't stay put ,you've met the 'perfect putt ' situation.....[as in 'the perfect storm' ,for those of you who might not be watching the sunday night movie ,which followed disney world and bonanza ].

[TEPaul]

"At what velocity (in club lengths) does wind go from being a design asset to a design liability?"

Only hurricane Ivan knows for sure.

[ForkaB]

Pat

LenBum has the right answer.  It doesn't, for two simple reasons.

Firstly, golf is challenging and fun in wind speeds all the way up to that situation mentioned by Steve and paul, i.e. ball being blown off green, but this latter sort of situation is extremely rare, even at the potentially windiest of golf courses, because, secondly.......

.........courses are never built, nor do all but the most foolhardy people live in areas which have consistent 3+ club winds (e.g. Mount Washington, the Antartctic).  So, your point is really moot, and in fact I would argue, thirdly.....

.....that courses which do NOT have significant wind have an inherent design liability.  I think occasional high (but playable)winds are good, consistently mild (1-2 club length) winds are most consistent with the principles and skills requried for golf, and courses on which wind is not a significant factor (through location or design--i.e. high trees) are lacking one of the essentials for a complete golfing experience.

PS--I've played a few competitions this year in 3-5 club winds, the last one this Saturday.  This is a rarity, even in Scotland, and while I would not want such winds to be a steady diet, it was very much "golf" we played, and the skills required by all levels of players was significantly and pleasingly intensified.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I guess one good example of excessive wind as a design liabilty would be those times (sometimes not so rare) where something like a non-option forced carry is rendered virtually impossible by excessive wind. I'm sure we can all think of examples of holes and times such as that. The painful example of the 17th at Kiawah during the Ryder Cup was not completely one of those examples but it was real close!

[A_Clay_Man]

Perhaps an example would be the bunkers at the Rawls course? Because of the wind's velocity, their construction is somewhat narrower and deeper than what the typical complaining golfer would find acceptable.

[CHrisB]

Only hurricane Ivan knows for sure.

Right now Ivan is a sixteen-club wind (sustained)... I'd imagine anything less than a driving 6-iron hit straight into it would balloon up and land behind you (assuming you could stand up to hit the shot).

[RJ_Daley]

I look at wind speeds that are 3 club lengths or more as infrequent natural occurences like rain and thunderstorms.  Courses designed in  many naturally windy areas already factor wider fairways (usually) into the designers equations.  If the designer didn't in such a naturally windy site, then he/she is not competent.  I like the above, when the ball is blown away on the green, it is a line of demarcation and time to pick up and go in for a hot drink.

[TEPaul]

ChrisB:

Actually if you tried to hit a controlled low trajectory 6 iron from say 100 yards into a wind of the sustained strength of Hurricane Ivan (150-160mph) your golf ball would probably end up about 2 miles behind you and you yourself would be launched backwards like a missle and you'd probably end up back by the clubhouse (if it was still there) where you'd been about 14 holes before!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

It depends on the golf course.

The question was intended to be phrased in the context of designing a new course, rather then playing an existing course.

Other then slowing the green speeds, how do you design a golf course and incorporate them within your design.[/color]

Rich Goodale,

LenBum is dead wrong.

When wind velocity blows balls off of the green, or the sand from the bunkers, it would be deemed excessive.

While green speed is a factor, wind velocity, especially where prevailing winds exist, should be an integral design element, and as such, there has to be a point at which wind goes from being a design asset to a design liability.

I noticed that the greens at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes were maintained such that it was difficult for a ball to be propelled solely by the wind.  If those greens were stimping at
12-14, those courses would be deemed gimicky or poorly designed/maintained.

[A_Clay_Man]

 How does cutting the grass on the greens too low, alter the quality of the design?

While I haven't been to bandon, I bet if any green was designed for 12-14 ft on the meter, they'd be flat and not worth the paper to design them on.

[ForkaB]

Pat

If you wanted to ask the reasonable question intimated in your last post..........

"Other then slowing the green speeds, how do you design a golf course and incorporate them (normal and abnormal site specific wind speeds) within your design."

.......you should have done so in your first post!

However, if you insist in sticking with the title and content of your first post, I'll continue to stick with LenBum for the time being.

[LenBum]

LenBum is dead wrong.

When wind velocity blows balls off of the green, or the sand from the bunkers, it would be deemed excessive.


It certainly would be excessive but would it mean there is a flaw in the design? How often have you played in wind like that? I have but only a few times and never did I look back on a hole thinking it was unfair or flawed. No designer should take wind velocity like that into account unless of course it blows like that a majority of the time. Moving tee markers and raising mower heights would offset wind like that. Wind like usually doesn't just "come out of no where". There usually is time to adjust the course setup. And even if there isn't, so be it.  Be prepared to put some high numbers of the scorecard but don't blame the design............................

[Patrick_Mucci]

LenBum,

You don't understand the question.

In addition, have you ever played a golf course where the wind is typically different in the afternoon then it is in the morning ?  How do you set the course up under those prevailing conditions.

Adam Clayman,

You can't alter the putting surface contours daily, you can alter green speeds daily.

If wind conditions called for that variation, could it not be said that a design flaw exists ?

Let me repeat the question since few seem to understand it.

At what velocity does wind transition from a design asset to a design liability ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

What you're asking about and talking about (or appear to be) really isn't so much in the realm of "design flaw", in my opinion. It's more in the realm of maintenance pratices or set-up practices (which falls into the realm of course maintenance, not course design--or certainly not completely into design) relating to various architecture.

I think the "line of demarcation" that you're asking about was front and center and plain as day to see this year---and that "line" was on display on the weekend of the US Open at Shinnecock.

With something like the wind or the potential of the wind to effect playablity that "line of demarcation" at Shinnecock was really close. At least so said a knowledgeable source like Mark Michaud. He mentioned that if the wind that blew on Monday following the Open blew on the set-up they used on Sunday the USGA would've had to shut down play.

You can imagine if the greenspeeds at Shinnecock on Sunday were around 9 or even 10 or 11 this would not have been true but at 12 or 13 it's true.

So this "line of demarcation" you speak of or ask about isn't just architectural design or a "design flaw"---it's the set-up or maintenance practices applied to various architecture. This all falls into that realm I call "the maintenance meld" (the effects of how maintenance practices relate to (or "meld" into) the playabliity of various architecture).

[ForkaB]

Pat

You really do have to rephrase the question.  Wind, per se, is not nor can it ever be either a design asset or liability   It just is.

Have a nice day!

[Paul_Turner]

Ballybunion New has this design flaw.  Too many greens, that are too small and perched for sensible play in a typical wind.

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