[mark chalfant]

Please supply thoughts about this course,

info regarding terrain, routing, and memorable holes would be great.

Also curious if anyone prefers this design over Brookline or Salem. Thanks

[SPDB]

Rich Goodale is your source.

[Brad Tufts]

Mark,

I had the fortune to play at Winchester last year, and I think it definately falls into the same category as Salem and TCC.  The are all quite similar, with mature trees lining most fairways (but no claustrophobia) and some interesting elevation changes.  Salem is a bit more benign in terrain, but has a wonderful set of greens.  Winchester's elevation changes are slightly more drastic, so the greens are flatter as much of the site's movement happens off the greens.  TCC (and I have not played the composite layout) has several all-world holes (3!!) but for me was more amazing for its place in golf history.

Winchester's front nine is not as interesting as the back, except for the pretty drop shot par-3 ninth.  The back nine has several very good holes like 10, a long par four with a two tiered green played into a breathtaking open area, 13, a short par five with a dual fairway choice off the tee around a central fairway bunker and parallel ridge, and 16, a 405-yd par four that plays over a ravine to a severely left-to-right sloping green.

When playing these Ross (and Flynn) classics, it always amazes me how much good golf there is in such close proximity to Boston.  Add these three tracks to Brae Burn, Charles River, Myopia, Woodland, Essex, Plymouth, Wellesley, and Oakley on the private side, and (the ever-improving)George Wright, Franklin Park, and Sandy Burr (fun Ross in Wayland, MA) and you have a collection of courses that may  secure Beantown as the #3 classic golf course architecture city in the country behind Philly and greater NYC.

--Brad  

[Brad Tufts]

Oh yeah, and I believe that I prefer Winchester to both, but just barely.  

[Joe Andriole]

I haven't played Winchester in 3 decades but have often wondered why no one speaks of this course which once was top 100 and IMHO is wonderful and in the same league as Salem.  The property is rather hilly, the routing superb nd the green complexes quite interesting. It's one of those places I hope to return to.

[DTaylor18]

Mark, I have had the pleasure of playing there many times and agree with these posts that Winchester is one of the areas best and that it never gets the same publicity.  The front nine is not as good as the back, or, more to the point, the first four holes is the weakest part.  For me, the course starts getting interesting on #5, the shortest par 4 on the course that tempts you to bite off as much as you can chew.  #7 is a fun par 4 with a severely sloping right to left fairway that usually leaves your ball ending up down on the left in, or just off, the fairway.  #8 is a brutally long uphill par 4 with a tricky green that looks 40 yards closer than it actually is.  #9 is one of the best par 3's in New England in my opinion, with evil bunkers all around it that makes it sort of an island green.

The back has some good holes too, including the very long par 3 11th and the back to back par 5's on #12 and #13.  I think the finish therei s brutal though.  The last 3 holes are all par 4's that are either long (#'s 17 and 18) or an insane green (#16).  #16 can not only be seen to be understood, but suffice it to say that past the whole is dead.

Overall, it is a great course, one that i wouldimagine was more enjoyable before the area became more crowded, when there weren't any roads along the sides of any of the holes.  It is fairly open and the pprpoerty definitley has some movement.  If i had to pick though, i enjoy Charles River more than Winchester, probably because i htink the start at Charles River is superior.  Both are greeat MA Ross courses though, and Brad is right, that area is stocked.  The problem is that not everyone gets to see how great some of these palces are.

[ForkaB]

I'd hardly call myself a "source" re: Winchester CC.  If I could channel my grandparents, uncles and my father I would be, but seancing is not one of my fortes.....

I was fortunate enough to play Winchester this July after a brief (30 year) hiatus.  It is a superb golfing experience.  I will second all the comments of Brad, JG and Dan, with the following additions.

1.  While the club does have a particularly strong finish, I do not think that the 1st nine suffers in comparison.  1 is a very good opening hole and 2 an excellent reachable "par" 5.  In fact I can't think of any hole on the front (or back) that does not have its special merits.

2.  The routing of the course is exemplary.  Multiple changes of direction and elevation, but all tees sited close to previous greens.  It's a tight property (in terms of acreage) but doesn't feel at all that way.  Good use of terrain that includes both wetlands and serious rock formations.

3.  Great conditioning.  At the macro level, whilst a very wooded site, it retains a feeling of ample width.  At the micro level, all the fairway bunkers are in the fairways, and the course is appropriately moderately fast and firm.  I'm sure it could be "tuned up" to "championship" standards with ease.

4.  Greens are more subtle than spectacular.  "Flattish" but tricky and fast.  The problems asked of the golfer tend to be more focused on "How do you get to the green, to the right place" than what do you do once you are there.

I can't comment on WCC vs. TCC or SCC as I haven't played the latter.  Others on this site can.  I do think it is every bit as good as Charles River, which I played in July also, and that is high praise, as "The River" is about as good as golfing gets.

I'll even go out on a limb and say that Winchester is every bit as good as Merion.  Strip away the patina of (championship)history from the latter and the two courses are very similar in terms of quality of design, golfing challenge and overall fun.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I'll even go out on a limb and say that Winchester is every bit as good as Merion.  Strip away the patina of (championship)history from the latter and the two courses are very similar in terms of quality of design, golfing challenge and overall fun.

Rich,

Hopefully that limb is not hanging over Merion's quarry, because you just snapped it and fell in !! I said yesterday in the Merion thread that Merion's quarry holes and Wilson's use and integration of Cobb's Creek separate it from many fine suburban courses such as Winchester. Winchester is very very nice, but like many Donald Ross courses, there are no All World Holes such as Merion's Creek holes @ 5, 11 (some would say 9 too, but not me) and Merion's quarry holes @ 16, 17 and 18.

I recognize you desire to tweak Tom's adopted hometown course, but even I have to jump on you for that one !!

Of course, maybe you meant Merion West.  

[ForkaB]

Mike

I really wasn't trying to tweak Tom Paul or anybody else (except those who judge golf courses on their history rather than their inherent quality).  Based on my VERY limited experience on each course I do believe that they are roughly equivalent in overall quality.  When I first broached this heresy (to a GCA stalwart who knows both courses well) he smiled and said soemething to the effect of "I've always believed that but never willing to take the hassle of saying so publically!"

I'd love to be able toplay each course 10-20 more times to get a better knowledge base and see if and how my opinion changes, but this is unlikely, alas....

PS--as great as Merion's finish is, I think Winchester's is slightly better, particularly 18.  Also, I think that 9-11 at WCC, which have been praised above by others are some of the least satisfying holes on the course (9 is a pretty--but pretty averagexample of a drop-shot hole and 10 and 11 are brutal rather than great).  I also think that #11 at Merion would be greatly improved if they cut down all those tall trees to the left of the green.  They make for a hellish approach shot if you are playing from the 12th fairway.......

[Mike_Sweeney]

I also think that #11 at Merion would be greatly improved if they cut down all those tall trees to the left of the green.  

Rich,

I am actually starting to think Tom Paul is right. You really don't know anything.

I have only played Winchester once, and I have actually been accused by some here of not appreciating Merion enough probably because it was the first and only great course that I played growing up. As I actually have to do some work today, we will simply have to settle this debate with a game of darts at Dornoch's 19th hole in the near future.  

[ForkaB]

Sounds, good, Mike, although I'm not sure if the members at Dornoch are going to appreciate us throwing darts around since there isn't a dartboard in the clubhouse.  I suggest we have a drink or two instead.

[DTaylor18]

Rich, ignore Mike, he has no appreciation for parkland courses.  If it has a tree on the property, he is uninterested!  Having played both, i must admit that i do prefer Merion.  Although I like WCC's #18, i don't love it.  maybe it's because the driving range comes into paly if you miss the drive right.  It's also brutally long.  I would agree that #'s 10 and 11 may be overrated, but i still love the 9th.  I do think part of what separates Merion from some of the other parkland courses are the quarry holes.  To me, other than #16, the last three holes at WCC are less unique and memorable.  

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Brad, I was right there with you until you mentioned Sandy Burr in Wayland, MA.

I used to play there often 10 years ago, when I lived closer.  I have played there each of the last two years.  And while I believe that the course was originally designed by Donald Ross, I don't see  much of that now.  And it certainly doesn't hold up to the rest of the great courses you mentioned!  

Did you shoot a really good score there, or something?  If that's the case, then you must really like Bass Rocks!

[Top100Guru]

I am playing at Winchester next Sunday..........

[pdrake]

hurricane ivan should be right over Boston by next weekend.......good luck!

[Brad Tufts]

Hey Martin,

I think part of my comment on Sandy Burr was due to the fact that the course was in good shape when I played it, which was quite different than I had been led to believe.  I agree that there are too many low-profile holes to have much Ross left, or possibly to be a very good Ross design to begin with, but I thought it had its share of interesting holes.  It appeared to be a tough site to begin with, as at least half the course borders (and probably once was) marshland.

And no, there were no 68s on my card the day I played it.  

--Brad

[Paul_Turner]

I just walked Winchester (a very easy course to sneak on and walk).  A super course and I agree with most of the comments above.  The only obvious criticism for me was that the par 3s lacked variety.  Not in length, but all pulpit targets with 3 having sharp drops to the left.

Fave holes: 7,8,13,17,18

From my experience of Ross's work,  it was as good as Plainfield and Orchards, but not quite as fine as Longmeadow.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Brad, I will admit that at least some of my problems with Sandy Burr are with the staff, who are consistently rude and unhelpful.  

But here is my rundown of holes I find interesting:  #9, a short, uphill, dogleg-left with a tricky green; ummm....

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