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Adam_F_Collins

The Swale
« on: September 06, 2004, 08:54:44 PM »
On some of the old courses that I know, a common feature is the swale. Grande undulations create a dramatic feel and when they're really large, they often give me this interesting sensation of being dwarfed by the natural environment.

I've always really liked the dramatic, roller-coaster effect that they provide.

These swales also create interesting lies and serve to direct water run-off. They often result in blind shots as well - which may be why I'm not seeing them in newer courses.

Is the swale being consciously erased from modern architecture?

What are your thoughts on the swale?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2004, 08:56:05 PM by Adam_F_Collins »

TEPaul

Re:The Swale
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2004, 09:04:47 PM »
One cannot really appreciate "the Swale" in golf architecture until they actually see and play the swale in the middle (now) of Fox Chapels's Biarritz (#17). It's the damnedest contour feature I've ever seen on a green (but North Berwick's #16 ain't bad). I was standing just to the side of it in the State Am about a month ago and it looked to be about FIVE FEET deep and it isn't very far from one top to the other top of it. You should have seen some of those players trying to putt out of it.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Swale
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2004, 09:11:33 PM »
North Berwick's #16 "Gate Hole" has an incredible five foot deep swale between the front and back plateaus.  I think this predates the swale on every Biarritz green, and has to be seen to be believed.  I hit my second shot to the right front of the green, actually on a closely mown area, and failed to see how the swale cut into my line to the pin.  My putt absolutely and unexpectedly disappeared into that swale!  :o ::)   I was very happy to putt up close to the front pin and made my bogey!  I'll try find the photo of the green that  I posted in May after my trip to Scotland.

TEPaul

Re:The Swale
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2004, 09:29:49 PM »
Bill:

If that swale on N. Berwick's #16 isn't the prototype for the swales Macdonald/Raynor used on their Biarritz greens, I'll eat my hat!

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Swale
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2004, 09:36:09 PM »
adam ....if one was to generalize  , drainage in the past was conveyed more on the surface than now , water was allowed to run atop the ground for a longer distances .....whether by utilizing natural terrain or creating it.

   its easier for todays agronomy to get water in the ground quicker ....long sheet flows can be worrisome to some.....resulting in more catch basins and less long and deep swales.

this is a generalzation  , not my preference.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Swale
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2004, 10:04:15 PM »
In terms of large greens spanning swales in modern golf design, my sense of why we don't see them much is efficiency of design related to maintenance/budget.  If you think of a classic Biarritz, with the full swale separating a front and back pinable putting surface, one can't ignore the huge amount of sq.ft. it eats up.  sq.ft. + $$$ to maintain.  Also added into the cost is the potential for scalping the ridges and seeing mower washboards in the wet and lush bottoms of swale.

We can see swales in many old designs, but fewer as modern era progresses.  Swales can be in Biarritz's or double plateaus, or other features like Valley of Sin.  

I like them in fairway LZs too, if the conditions are firm and fast.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Swale
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2004, 10:17:34 PM »
Is the swale being consciously erased from modern architecture?

General movement is being erased from modern architecture giving way to bowling alley smooth fairways and greens.  Most modern architects think contaiment mounding (of which all are the same size and shape) is interesting architecture.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Swale
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2004, 10:18:42 PM »
Dick, I'm not sure exactly how the maintenance crew at North Berwick mows that swale, but they did a beautiful job, no scalping whatsoever.   Of course they've been mowing it for over a hundred years!

Tom, I think the North Berwick swale is a lot steeper than what the photos of swales I've seen at Yale and other Biarittzes appear to be.  Those swales look deep but wide, where the swale at NB was really more of a trench!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Swale
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2004, 12:30:42 AM »
Adam,
Once again, a great topic of which I hope this post gets more then 3000 hits. You always seem to come up with the best topics. Thanks!

I love swales, especially when they are natural or have been refined from nautral movements. Billy Bell was great at swales because they usually were natural or refined and he used them for surface drainage, unlike Arnold Palmer, King Fizzio, and Jack Nicklaus who seem to nowadays have drains in each and every swale, dip, ridge, grass bunker, friggin' containment mound or anything else to add to the cost and justify their existence.

All of you architects out there that are using these things in hopes of PERFECT drainage to compliment your massive earthmovements on sites that really never needed it---as my govenor Arnold Sharwznegger would say, "Too Hell Vitch You" and may you all be banned from building and designing golf courses forever.

A_Clay_Man

Re:The Swale
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2004, 09:17:53 AM »
They still use swales in modern designs. Only they've turned them to the vertical. ;D