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rgkeller

If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« on: September 01, 2004, 09:55:24 AM »
If Seminole disappears Saturday, engulfed and washed away in the Hurricane Frances storm surge, do all the courses ranked below Seminole automatically move up one spot?

And which course becomes the new number 100?

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2004, 03:14:44 PM »
Has a course ever been permanently washed away by a hurricane? I wouldn't be surprised if one has, but I'd guess the membership at Seminole has the means and the motivation to restore the course to its pre-storm state (if I were them, I might be out on the course right now taking some very detailed photos, however.)

Augusta National nearly destroys parts of its course every summer, and they seem to rebuild it as good as new, if not better, by the time the next golf season rolls around.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

rgkeller

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2004, 03:18:54 PM »
Well, if Frances comes on shore at Seminole Landing with 155 mph winds and a 20 foot storm surge, then the dunes which make up the eastern border of the course will be no longer.

All the money in the world cannot restore a course which is part of the Atlantic Ocean.

Mike_Cirba

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2004, 03:21:46 PM »
Maidstone came pretty close to being mostly gone during the 1930s.  The overhead aerials of the damage are rather dramatic.  

I know Wild Dunes lost their seafront holes to Hurricane Hugo, as well.  

I'm sure there have been others.

pdrake

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2004, 03:23:04 PM »
If this hurrican comes on shore directly in juno beach, there will be a lot more problems out there besides Seminole.  How about all those older high rises in Jupiter?  And god forbid it hits Jupiter Island......it is all trees and dunes.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2004, 03:31:08 PM »
The Ocean Course at Kiawah was being built when Hugo occured in 1989.  I think a big chunk of the work done up until was destroyed.  I think some of the routing had to be changed afterwards as well.

I'll wait for Mike Vegis to correct whatever (or even all) of what I said wrong.


It wasn't a hurricane, but heavy rains (and thus mudslides) destroyed parts of the old Ocean course at Olympic a few years back and the original (Links?) course may years ago.  I think.  :P

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2004, 03:40:07 PM »
To specifically answer rgkeller's question, I think Seminole remains a top-rated course until such time as it proves it can't be reconstructed. At that point, I vote for Northland Country Club (replacing a Ross with a Ross.) :)
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2004, 03:49:26 PM »
I would rephrase the title question.

I made the mistake of saying last year that a hurricane would help do some clearing at Mid Ocean Club.  They got one, but the loss of life and property damage in Bermuda was far more significant than the benefit to the clearing plan at the club.

Wild Dunes was the most severely damaged course by a hurricane of which I am aware.  Charleston National, which was supposed to cut its ribbon the day after Hurricane Hugo, was also terribly affected ... the tide didn't wash in, but all the trees around the course were levelled and the character of the course forever changed.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2004, 04:39:43 PM »
I agree with Tom that you probably should be a little more sensative to the people of Florida.  

As for Seminole, it looks like the projected path is going to be north possibly around Daytona Beach where my mother and sister live.  It may not be such a bad thing if LPGA International was renovated, I wonder if they would bring Rees back?

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2004, 04:44:35 PM »
The Ocean Course at Kiawah was being built when Hugo occured in 1989.  I think a big chunk of the work done up until was destroyed.  I think some of the routing had to be changed afterwards as well.

I'll wait for Mike Vegis to correct whatever (or even all) of what I said wrong.

It wasn't a hurricane, but heavy rains (and thus mudslides) destroyed parts of the old Ocean course at Olympic a few years back and the original (Links?) course may years ago.  I think.  :P

Pete had staked out the course when Hugo came through.  Since Kiawah was on the south side of the storm, the winds were blowing offshore.  They blew so hard that the entire dune structure was washed out to sea.  Pete pretty much had to rebuild the dune structure as best as he could remember (with a few artistic adjustments) on the entire back nine.  

As Tom Doak mentions on Charleston National, if you play there today, you'll drive on winding cart paths in wide-open areas.  Before Hugo, they were winding through the maritime forest...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 05:38:30 PM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2004, 04:53:41 PM »

It wasn't a hurricane, but heavy rains (and thus mudslides) destroyed parts of the old Ocean course at Olympic a few years back and the original (Links?) course may years ago.  I think.  :P

It was the winter of El Nino that wiped out the Ocean holes at Olympic.

Top100Guru

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2004, 05:44:52 PM »
Yeaman's and Charleston CC also sustained major tree damage during hugo........if this one directly hits the Hobe Sound/Jupiter area, there could be at least 15 courses destroyed.

frank_D

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2004, 06:44:47 PM »
brother rjkeller

don't nominate any replacements yet - if doral survived andrew i'm confident seminole will also survive

landfall is predicted by noaa as of 5pm today to be ft pierce FL

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2004, 06:55:34 PM »
I'm sure Tom Marzloff-Fazio is ready to handle the situation if needed, matter of fact, he's probably waiting in a jet for the storm to subside. Might as well get Seminole while he's destroying all of the other ones!

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2004, 07:05:12 PM »
I live in Jupiter, a par 5 away from Seminole.

Let's hope for no loss of life :(
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

rgkeller

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2004, 07:05:49 PM »
Well, Seminole is bit closer to the ocean and the storm surge than is Doral.

Besides, how would anyone discern if Doral survived or not.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2004, 10:09:33 PM »
Good luck Cary and all the SE coastal folks.  It sure seems like we are going through some extreme cycles...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jfaspen

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2004, 11:26:09 PM »
I live in Jupiter, a par 5 away from Seminole.

Let's hope for no loss of life :(

Cary and all others down there, keep your heads down...


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2004, 12:01:44 AM »
A. Mackenzie's Sharp Park in San Francisco/Pacifica lost several of its seaside holes forever due to a severe storm within a year or two after it opened in the 1930's. Additional permanent damage by storms has been done to the course over the years. Daniel Wexler's 'Lost Links" has an account of what happened.

rgkeller

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2004, 07:27:13 AM »
5 AM NOAA advisory puts Frances' landfall at Jupiter, Florida.

T_MacWood

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2004, 07:33:02 AM »
RG
Based on your comments on Ross on a previous thread I'm not certain you wouldn be too disapointed if it were washed away. You mentioned Seminole and Pinehurst #2 being enhanced by men other than Ross. Did you ever trackdown who deserves credit at Seminole and Pinehurst #2?

Brock Peyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2004, 07:56:03 AM »
Having been through 6 or 7 hurricanes, I think that the immediate focus obviously shouldn't be on golf.  It is terrible to see the changes that these storms can make on a course but in most cases you can clean up the debri (sp?) and start playing.  It breaks my heart to see these people that lose everything.  i will be keeping these people and this area in my prayers as I am sure most will.  May God help them, hopefully that nasty sucker will take a sharp turn right and go away.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2004, 07:56:55 AM by Brock Peyer »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2004, 09:08:48 AM »
If Seminole Disappears Saturday...it's not like I was ever going to play there anyways....

Here's to people's safety in FL and wherever else Frances hits.

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2004, 09:11:55 AM »
Good luck to everyone in Florida.

Health, then Golf.

JWK

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:If Seminole Disappears Saturday...?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2004, 10:47:23 AM »
My sister is just inland from Ft. Lauderdale, and is on the Emergency Operations Team for the city of Tamarac, and so will not be evacuating.  She will be going this afternoon to one of the fire stations designated as the Emergency Operations Center to ride out whatever is coming.  She is reconciled to losing a lot of her "stuff", if not everything.  I'm just hoping that is all she loses.  It scares me to death.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones