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Mark_F

Greens That Maketh The Hole
« on: September 01, 2004, 06:35:03 AM »
I've played two courses recently, Macrihanish and Tain, which had a couple of holes that were no great shaeks in the tee or second shot department - number 2 at Macrihanish and number 15 at Tain - but had greens so good you wanted to run back to the 150 marker with a shag bag of balls and just hit a whole bunch of shots to them.

Macrihanish has that crazy sunken bathtub green, whilst the 15th at Tain has a shallow, slightly hollowed out ridge-plateau that falls off into several other hollows with a great swale bitten out of the right side.  

Anyone else have favourite holes where the green outweighs any other 'shortcomings' the hole may have?

A_Clay_Man

Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2004, 08:59:32 AM »
Mark- Depending on thier placement in the round, I've found on several great designs that these "short-comings" are not short-comings at all.

i.e. The 15th at Pebble, those who advocate for more interest or features in the drive zone, have little appreciation for the temporary relief that this almost breather hole provides. But once on that green, all breathing usually stops.

Another fine i.e. is the original penultimate hole at Pinon Hills. The first of back-to-back 3 shotters the drive and second are breathers, or relatively featureless. But, the approach can be the most demanding shot of the day, depending on pin position, to this boomerang shaped green with shelves on the wings.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2004, 09:08:36 AM »


A shortish, slight dogleg par 4 at Brokenhurst Manor.  The "sideways Biarritz" green makes the hole.  
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Neil Regan

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2004, 11:59:54 AM »
Machrihanish 2nd Green

Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Tom_Doak

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2004, 12:04:34 PM »
The eighth at High Pointe [or the seventh, or second].

The fourth at Lost Dunes [or the third, or twelfth].

Bill Gayne

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2004, 12:17:39 PM »
Does having the bunker in the green at Riviera's sixth hole make the green and hole? Would the hole be the least bit noteworthy without the bunker in the green?


BCrosby

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2004, 12:30:28 PM »
This is easy. The 16th at N. Berwick.

Bob

RJ_Daley

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2004, 12:41:40 PM »
I think there are at least two aspects to consider this question.

Are there features within the green that make the hole, and
are there features surrounding the green that make the hole,
with a further add on consideration of do the surround features tie into the green to make the hole.

Internal, and within the green features such as tiers and even bunkers like Riviera or 17th Bayside
have a target or aerial element to them.  Although, Bayside is so large and sweeping and sloped
that there is much ground action to consider.

Interesting surrounds, kick slopes, run-up aprons, and runaways to chipping areas,
add to the hole, and are associated or tied into the green design.

I guess most everyone loves a wild green like the Macrihanish picture posted.

But obviously, the theme holes of the C.B and Rayor set, like the Biarritz, Redan, double Plateau and such make the holes.

I think those 10 or 12 theme standards in that repetoire are the basic foundation of all geen designs to a large extent.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam_Messix

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2004, 04:42:26 PM »
The 2nd Green at Rolling Rock in Ligonier, Pennsylvania sticks out in my mind.  The hole itself is rather simple, a 320 yarder that runs slightly uphill with a bunker fronting the green.  The green itself is large for a hole of this length but is contoured so that a ball in the wrong portion of the green is left with a difficult to impossible putt.  I saw a person play their approach approximately 15 feet above the hole and have no putt.  We tried the putt over and over, the higher we played it, the further it went by.  The great part is that it wasn't the least bit unfair, at least in my mind it wasn't.  Also, it was surprising to me how docile the green looked from the fairway. This is the one green that I wish I had taken a picture of.  The 3rd green at Rolling Rock is pretty good too.  

David_Elvins

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2004, 07:48:49 AM »
Anyone else have favourite holes where the green outweighs any other 'shortcomings' the hole may have?

Every hole at THe Old Course.
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Brock Peyer

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2004, 07:52:15 AM »
14 at Augusta is my favorite example.  Placement of your tee shot means so much here but then even if you are in the optimum spot you still have a tricky shot that has very little margin of error.  Miss short and you are struggling to make five, miss long and you must really grind for 4.  If you are on the green there won't be a straight putt.  This all being said, we have seen some great approach shots through the years.

johnk

Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2004, 12:24:57 PM »
To me this is analogous to asking: "Does the face make the model?"

I understand that otherwise mundane bad holes with great greens still can be good.  That's not surprising.

The converse is interesting:
Name a good hole where the green is *not* the essential element.

Evan_Green

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2004, 12:36:55 PM »
I would have to say the 16th Hole at Pasatiempo. It's probably my favorite green. It is a nice hole without that 3 tiered beauty, but without it it isnt the world beater it is.


Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2004, 01:01:48 PM »
Does having the bunker in the green at Riviera's sixth hole make the green and hole? Would the hole be the least bit noteworthy without the bunker in the green?

Bill,

The green is noteworthy because of the bunker, of course.  But the green itself is surprisingly sloped and is almost 3-4 greens-within-a-green, sectioned off in quarters.

ed_getka

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2004, 01:34:32 AM »
David,
   What on earth does #9 do for that hole? It couldn't be flatter.

 Tom,
   What about #11 at Lost Dunes, I don't remember #12 as well.

Evan,
  I disagree, at today's green speeds, I think that green detracts from the hole. #17 on the other hand is the epitome of a green saving a hole at Pasatiempo.

#12 at Rustic Canyon fits the bill, along with #9.

#12 and 14 greens at Bayside in Nebraska are good examples.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

peter_p

Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2004, 10:41:03 PM »
The 13th (vortex) and the 5th (punchbowl) at Kingsley Club. The 7th (boomerang) and 13th (redan) at Crystal Downs.
The 16th at Prestwick. The quintuple level par three at Chardonnay.

TEPaul

Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2004, 05:40:48 AM »
Of the holes mentioned that I've seen the best example, in my opinion, may be Ross's 2nd at Rolling Rock, mentioned by Adam Messix. The reason may be simply because the rest of the hole is really not much, basically nothing, other than a long shot. But what goes on with that green that may not look that complicated just exudes everything backward bigtime from tee to hole out!

It seems to me many of the best holes, and best architecture in golf sort of revolve or center around maybe just one thing and when that one thing actually looks somewhat simple, or natural or minimal but really isn't in play you just may have a golf hole and architecture for the ages!

It seems to me that creating really good architecture, at least in the somewhat prized "minimalistic" vein is a lot like really good acting or really great actors---the one thing they all seem to fear is overacting. They seem to capture the entire essence of a scene or feeling with the barest of physical output.

Great golf architecture, great minimalist architecture anyway, is probably some of the old stuff simply because if they didn't have anything truly interesting to start with sometimes they really couldn't or didn't move or even create that much in the mid-bodies of their holes as today's architect do almost as a matter of course. In many cases where some of the old time architects didn't have much to work with from tee to green they didn't do anything at all---other than just put something really meaningful at the target or destination (green) that cast meaining all the way back without sometimes obviously appearing to. Many of today's architects are like over-actors, they just try to do too much, some or even most of which really has not much meaning in play.

I think a really great way to create good architecture and particularly great minimalistic architecture is to come up with an interesting concept (strategy, strategies, whatever) on a golf hole and then design it up as much as you want---then look at it very carefully to see if you've truly caught the essence of the concept and then proceed to start removing things until you hit that point where the essence of the concept might just start to diminish but hasn't! You might then find that you have a hole and architecture that revolves really well around one single thing that doesn't look that meaningful but really is in play.

I guess another way to look at all this in a less wordy manner is something my Dad used to say about learning golf itself---eg. "let the ball be your teacher!" The same can probably be said about really good architecture.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2004, 05:45:39 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Hendren

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Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2004, 10:24:16 AM »
The 8th at Beverly.  Faithful?  Unlikely.  Successful? Definitely.  8)

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

THuckaby2

Re:Greens That Maketh The Hole
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2004, 10:34:30 AM »
I'm with Ed re 16 Pasa - at today's speeds it is
far too often goofy golf and if anything the green
does detract
from an otherwise great golf hole.  The same goes for
#11.  And Ed's also right re #17 - the green
saves what otherwise might be a blah hole there.

As for a great hole where the green is not the
essential element, how about #16 Cypress Point?

TH