[TEPaul]

Having looked carefully at Merion East yesterday and discussed with those over there that have to do with the course the long term projects the golf course has gone through for perhaps many years now, that're on-going and that will probably culminate at the 2005 US Amateur, I can hardly wait to watch match play during next year's US Amateur. The effects on playability of the maintenance practices that have been and are being put in place will be most interesting to see with the top amateurs. I have a feeling in stroke play qualifying for match play and in match play that course is really going to be a mental workout for all of them!

[A_Clay_Man]

Recent references, about the feelings of the membership, regarding remarks made on that anonymous drive-by bunker thread, were very interesting. After more recent postings, and the admission that those who started the infamous thread, held-back the real skinny, of what was actually going-on at Merion, showed a sensitivity most think is non-exisitent in this forum.

When reading those "feelings" I couldn't help but see the dichotomy and realized that whether they were miffed or not, at least, they were reading, and from the above, GCA.com deserves some credit for the disemination of the architectural and maintenance corrolation. And the importance of marrying the two, if golf is to stimulate the mind.

Thanks Merion guys. I will likely never step foot on your hallowed grounds, but at least I'll be able to sleep at night knowing you've taken huge steps to preserving the sport for future generations to swear over.

[TEPaul]

Adam:

If the things that were said, and the people who said them on here in the last few years about the Merion bunker project think they contributed to the way the bunkers or the entire years long Merion project have finally turned out I have the distinct feeling all the people involved at Merion aren't aware of it!

But if some on here want to take some credit for it anyway, and it seems they now are, I'm sure Merion might say, "let them be our guest!"  

My personal feeling is that those who lambasted the Merion bunker project back then probably should've had the knowledge and experience to just allow the Merion bunkers to have a year or two to grow in as they have. Apparently those who lambasted Merion didn't have that knowledge or experience. Perhaps that's a good lesson we all might learn from all this. If so, will any of us even admit that's a lesson we learned or should learn?

I still maintain, as I always have on the Merion bunker project that the sanding and drainage could have been done without actually completely taking apart and recreating the surrounds. We even had that conversation yesterday. Merion didn't see how that was possible or logical. But there may be a way, and although it's only academic now with the Merion bunkers perhaps some of the real architectural experts on here who do understand the nuts and bolts of restoration construction could weigh in on the possiblitly and/or feasiblity of that.

Is that possible or feasible? I'm really not sure although I did offer an opinion anyway (I guess I always do even if I don't really know what I'm talking about). One way may have been to leave the old sand flashed faces alone and simply work below them (where the golf ball will stay and the real drainage is necessary).

But of course, off the top of my head I can't imagine how those old sand flashed faces would have handled the old "wash down" problems if they were never touched and worked on.

My feeling has always been if you're going to use a product like bunker-wol to only use it up on the sand faces where the ball doesn't come to rest! But how could they have gotten bunker-wol under the sand flashed faces and supported the surrounds above them at the same time?

Good question and again, maybe some architectural/construction expert can weigh in on that now, although with Merion's bunkers that's now only academic. But if it's possible maybe it's something WE ALL (including Merion and other courses who may go through bunker restoration projects) can learn from. On the other hand, it appears that Philly C.C just went through a bunker restoration project and they managed to leave their surrounds alone and to also get bunker-wol under the ENITIRE sand area of all their bunkers. So one way to find out how to go about this would be to ask Mike McNulty of PCC!

But anyway, although they do look heavy or sod heavy the bunkers of Merion with their now mature and random grassing and grassing lines look really good.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom- I know of no one taking credit for anything. These are my observations from just the reading of this site.

Since I know I have communication challenges, my point is; as indirect as this web site and "those people" are, the open discussion aspect, on all matters, seems to be having it's affect, throughout more of the golfing world. And this is just one of the benefits. I suppose it's possible that everything would still be the same, had the Morrissette's never met, or the internet never was invented by Al Gore   but it is, has, and is showing the positives of communication in an open and honest non as*kissing way, that pretty much defined the politics of yesterday.

 

[ChipOat]

From the newly-installed "way back" tee boxes, the course is LONG and it is HARD.

The new tee boxes on #'s 12 and 17 appear to be slotted for "normal" championship tee marker locations - both now seriously more demanding but emminently playable.  If #2 also gets that nod, that would be a positive as the extra length is do-able by mere mortals and the angle is, IMO, more scary/strategic.

#'s 5,6,14,15 & 18 are simply not playable from the tips for all but the longest hitters (like 99% of the U.S. Am field).

#'s 3 and 9 are now a couple of seriously challenging par 3's at 220 (uphill) and 225 (downhill) respectively.

The greens are lightening-fast and the rough is punishing but your ball is readily "findable" so the pace of play is not impaired.

Bring your best game and be prepared to be impressed by what an extra (concentrated) 300+ yards can do to a course's degree of difficulty.

[TEPaul]

Adam:

I think I can pretty much guarantee one thing. If Golfclubatlas.com or anyone on it really did have some influence on how the bunkers of Merion have eventually turned out, the Green Chairman who oversaw that project is definitely a big enough man to admit it!

Throughout the entire flack and clatter that went on on Golfclubatlas.com over Merion, Bill Greenwood, the now years long green chairman was definitely not averse to discussing the project or any detail of it with anyone who wanted to talk to him about it, including me.

No one on here may know this but he was not at all averse to both taking and/or returning the telephone calls of Tommy Naccarato.

[Mike_Cirba]

Adam;

You made your point eloquently.  

Not everything that was said on this website was necessarily polite or even correct, but all of it was done out of concern and love for the golf course.  That's why it became such an emotional issue here.

The story became so controversial (due largely to this website) that it was a feature story on the front page of the Sunday section of the Philadelphia Inquirer.  Perhaps the membership is immune to that type of constructive criticism, but whether or not anyone here deserves credit for the turn of events where the bunkers are being maintained in their old, rugged style, it's a positive thing that I think we can all support.  Early comments about "cleaning up the bunkers" had many of us fearing that they'd be Augusta-like sanitized, and their early incarnations surely didn't provide much hope to the contrary.  Subsequent structural problems were probably something other clubs could learn from, but the issue became so sensitive that I know that myself and others refrained from commenting here during that time because it would have been ungentlemanly, at best.

Chip;

I'm thinking that the total yardage has to be around 7K now?  Would that seem correct to you?
 

[SPDB]

I said it here before. But I played with a Top SEC player (from the athletic conference, not the regulatory body), last fall. In consecutive days he went 69 at Pine Valley and 76 at Merion. It was his first time at both, and he brought similar games to each course. Mind you, the course was not playing to its full yardage.

The scores at the US Amateur are going to open some eyes to those who have said that Merion cannot hold a major tournament. I suspect the scores will be equal or higher to those posted at WF last week.

[Mike_Trenham]

What is the second venue for the 36 hole medal play? I  belive it is to be Philadelphia CC.  Is this correct?

[TEPaul]

".....but whether or not anyone here deserves credit for the turn of events where the bunkers are being maintained in their old, rugged style, it's a positive thing that I think we can all support.  Early comments about "cleaning up the bunkers" had many of us fearing that they'd be Augusta-like sanitized, and their early incarnations surely didn't provide much hope to the contrary."

Mike Cirba:

I'm glad to hear you say that now about Merion's bunkers. But why do you suppose some on here feared Merion would redo their bunkers to be super clean and Augusta-like sanitized? Did anyone at Merion ever say or indicate that? Not to my knowledge. The redone bunkers at Merion did have surrounds that looked much cleaner than they'd been before the bunker project but the reason was obviously the grassing hadn't had the time to grow and mature and take on that far more rugged look they have now.

I don't recall a single person on here, including me, mentioning during all those adverserial threads back then that maybe we all ought to just give those bunkers a chance and the time to let their grass surrounds grow!! Do you remember anyone on here saying that? THAT, in my opinion, is certainly one of the lessons the contributors to this website should learn for future architectural discussions and critiques!

You asked what the total card yardage of Merion will be now from the tips. I asked about that and it doesn't appear that's been decided on yet.

At some point soon Merion will need to be rerated from their new tips---and print new score cards to reflect that. It sounds to me as if they'd like to come in just under 7k. But that depends on where they tell GAP (the course raters) where they'd like to place the official markers! If they chose to place all the plaques say two steps from the back of all the new back tees they probably could come in around 7K or just over it but, again, I don't think they want to do that. The point is, though, that if they felt like playing the course with all the movable tee markers two steps from the back of the tees of the new back tees golfers would be playing the course at 7K or over it!

[TEPaul]

Mike Trenham:

Correct. The 312 or so regional qualifiers who made the amateur will play 36 holes of qualifying---one round at Merion and one at PCC. The 64 low qualifyiers will be formatted by qualifying scores for match play at Merion East.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Tepaul-I think Pat Mucci was  the most fair in his critique of the Merion bunker situation.  As I recall, he admonished some for the bias against Fazio, and said it would be an evolution.

[George Pazin]

Actually, my recollection is that several members of the site said that everyone had to give the project time. If pressed for names, I'd say Rich Goodale, Pat Mucci and Sean (SPDB) were among those who advocated patience. And anyone who reads this site regularly knows how much it pains me to list those particular fellows!

For all of the criticism of Tommy, I think he is sticking to his guns - after the last photos were posted, he still seemed to feel that they didn't look as good as the old bunkers. Judging solely from the photos posted, I would agree, although, obviously, I haven't the bunkers in person, so my opinion is therefore highly qualified (I think that's the appropriate term, like the accountants sometimes use - someone can correct me if I'm wrong).

One of the hardest things about this site is that for some reason well beyond my capabilities of understanding, many tend to suspect the worst of anyone that disagrees with them. Again, my recollection is that the criticism was specific and widespread, and the defense was general and often targeted at denigrating the critic, which only served to further escalate tensions. I'm sure the defenders would disagree with this generalization, so take it for what it's worth.

My feeling is that, when criticised, each of us owes it to the critic in question to respond to their specifics at least once before attacking their motivations, intentions, whatever.

BillV's original post on the first "Who Are You Guys?" thread included a wonderful thought that each of us would do well to keep in the back of his mind: "I never met a stiff who was into architecture." Think about that at least briefly the next time you choose to question someone's motives, intentions, read someone's mind, etc.

End of rant.

Sean -

I don't think the concerns re: Merion were focussed on scoring so much as the clubs players would be hitting. Virtually any course can be set up to defend itself from low scores, but I think the playing concern with Merion was more that it would either take the driver out of too many players' hands too often, or that too many holes would be approached with wedges. (Note: this is not my opinion, this is my recollection of the critics' opinions.)

[TEPaul]

Hamilton:

Maybe Pat did admonish many on here about Merion and Fazio. That was in the days when Pat was on his constant "bias" ranting. My recollection about Pat's feeling about those bunkers at Merion "evolving" was that they couldn't possibly evolve to what they once were simply because they were constructed so differently during the bunker project. By the way I was at Merion with Pat the only time he was Merion's bunkering since the bunker project. But maybe I'm wrong about that recollection of what Pat said about them evolving. Or perhaps that may even have been one of those rare 2% times when Pat was actually right about something!  

[TEPaul]

George:

There're a number of holes at Merion that most good players have always approached with wedges and that won't change at the 2005 US Open. But of the par 4s that didn't used to be approached with wedges and came to be that way recently won't be with some of these new tees. Of the par 4s that'll include #5, 6, 14 and 18. Of the par 3s the only one ever approached by a wedge was #13.

But it's #17 I really can't wait to see those 2005 Amateur championship players play. You should see that hole now---I've never seen it look so impressive and so open, but there's a ton of danger down there even if you do hit some parts of that green! And I can't wait to see those players play the 5th hole either!! No matter how long any of them are they're really going to have to use their heads throughout on that hole!

[Mike_Cirba]

I won't go into it in detail because some of it was sent in private emails, but to say that Patrick was a staunch defender of the Merion bunker project is not an accurate understanding.  

Even on here, didn't he compare them to bathtubs, and seriously question their accessiblity, playability, maintenance, and structural stability?  

Tom Paul;

I believe the club is doing what is their only realistic option left to make them play and look rugged...grow the grass that they put on the faces.  Lord knows there's enough of it there!    

[TEPaul]

"I believe the club is doing what is their only realistic option left to make them play and look rugged...grow the grass that they put on the faces."

Mike:

That's one option they used but not the only one or by any stretch of the imagination the most effective one. What's going to make them play more rugged for particularly the good player compared to how they used to play for the good player is the fact that now most all of them are a lot deeper than they used to be---and that really is an architectural change, not a maintenance (grassing) change.

[George Pazin]

I didn't say Pat was a defender, staunch or otherwise. I think mostly he was concerned with the mission statement. I do think he felt it was too soon to pass judgement, and I may have inferred from this that he felt they might or would evolve.

Tom P -

Can't wait to see 17 - I may have to make the trip across the state next year to see for myself. I think it would be wonderful for architecture in general if an open looking hole were to play difficult, since most seem to feel the best defense for anything is narrow narrow narrow with thick lush rough.

[Mike_Cirba]

"I believe the club is doing what is their only realistic option left to make them play and look rugged...grow the grass that they put on the faces."

Mike:

That's one option they used but not the only one or by any stretch of the imagination the most effective one. What's going to make them play more rugged for particularly the good player compared to how they used to play for the good player is the fact that now most all of them are a lot deeper than they used to be---and that really is an architectural change, not a maintenance (grassing) change.

Tom;

How does that architectural "change" square with the idea that they were restoring to Hugh Wilson's 1930 timeframe?  Similarly, I'm not sure that Hugh and Bill Flynn had the White Faces of Merion wearing shaggy grass face masks at that time?  

Wasn't this all about recapturing 1930?  

No, instead my contention is that they are trying to make the best of the situation and you can only work with what you got.  I'm applauding their direction, but I'm not buying the party line.

[Matt_Ward]

Slightly off topic but can anyone speak to the reality of the club landing the '13 US Open?

I have heard from a few media people in the Boston area that the floating of Merion's name isn't about really moving forward with the Ardmore club for the championship but it's an attempt in getting the key folks at TCC to make financial concessions and other givebacks before landing the event which would celebrate Francis Ouimet's 100th anniversay in winning the event in 1913.

Can anyone speak to this?

P.S. I also wonder if the club fails to land the Open are there any discussions on the club deciding to permit (for the first time) a major professional group (PGA of America) to host their championship there? Thanks ...

[TEPaul]

Can't wait to see 17 - I may have to make the trip across the state next year to see for myself. I think it would be wonderful for architecture in general if an open looking hole were to play difficult, since most seem to feel the best defense for anything is narrow narrow narrow with thick lush rough."

George:

Yes, you can't imagine how open #17 looks now from way back there compared to the way it was. Although adding more tee length to #18 was not exactly something I think I would have ever recommended or even supported I believe yesterday I figured out why they may have added tee length to #18!

It's so those big strong guns will be teeing off far enough behind #17 green so they don't get killed by a tee shot from some other big strong gun from 240 yards off of #17 tee!  

[TEPaul]

"Can anyone speak to this?"

NO!!!

"P.S. I also wonder if the club fails to land the Open are there any discussions on the club deciding to permit (for the first time) a major professional group (PGA of America) to host their championship there? Thanks ..."

NO!! But don't let that stop you from breaking the news anyway on something that Merion may never discuss. We, on here, should all know by now that what Merion thinks goes on over there doesn't really matter. All that matters on here is what we think the truth of what goes on at Merion is!  

[peter_mcknight]

OK--I know I have asked in previous posts about how far back the new back tees are at Merion.  From what I can tell from this thread, there are new tees on 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 14, 15, 17 and 18.  How far do each of those holes go back now?

Hole 2--535 yards
Hole 3--185 yards (now 220?)
Hole 5--425 yards
Hole 6--420 yards
Hole 9--195 yards (now 225?)
Hole 14--410 yards
Hole 15--380 yards
Hole 17--220 yards
Hole 18--460 yards (I have heard this is now in the 495 range)

Are the new tees congruous with the original tees?  What I mean by that is, if you look at Pinehurst no. 2 9th new back teeing ground, it isn't congruous with the original intent of the hole (makes the approach to the front right and back left far more difficult).  Would these tees flow from the original intent of Hugh Wilson?  I am only asking these questions because I haven't been there in 12 years and am most curious.

It is always nice when yardages are included when a hole is being discussed, especially if there have been changes.

[TEPaul]

Peter:

There's no card yet reflecting the tee length additions.

I'd say #2 looked to be back about 15 yards or so. It's also a bit to the left of the present back tee giving the hole a very interesting look and tee shot angle.

#3=220
#5=500+
#6--that tee looks to be maybe 40 or more yards back
#9=215 or so
#12=back to the fence and now over 400
#14=an additional 40 or so yards probably making it 460+. This one is interesting as it will be used as a putting green some of the time and a portion of it as a back tee some of the time.
#15=looks to be another 30+yards
#17=240
#18=probably right around 495

The only one that's a bit problematic, in my opinion, is the tips on #15. You can't see the front of the fairway from back there and you can just see the fairway bunkering if you're 6 feet tall. #17 looks spectacular from back there and looks very long and very open. They did a fine job of tying most all these tees into the surrounding ground. There's also a new and expanded tee and surrounds on #13 that looks much different than it used to.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

That's a LOT of yardage addition to a course that was often poo-poohed in the past as some 6400 yard anachronism.  I can attest to how difficult some of those holes play from the new back tees because they had been installed on 3, 5, and 18 when I last played there.

However, 14 was already the longest 420 yard hole I was familiar with and thinking about some of the others you mentioned, I can't imagine that overall length could be a serious detriment to the USGA in considering the course for a major championship.  Those familiar with the course will recognize that it's extremely balanced, with the holes that play short being very short, yet amazingly precarious and the holes that are long are simply ball-bustingly so.  

In other words, it's not a typical 7,000 yard course where you're faced with a bunch of 410 yard par fours.  Instead, the variety of ranges of challenges you're faced with not only keep you off balance, but mean that in your mind, you know that the challenge only accelerates as you progress through the round.

It also probably means that the final five holes at Merion are now probably the toughest finishing stretch in championship golf.  

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