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Willie_Dow

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People vs Architecture
« on: August 23, 2004, 08:46:19 PM »
Names: Eg Fazio, Nicklaus, etc vs Hanse, Doak -who gives or makes the product?  The best golf design comes from what?  Is it a feel for something, or is it an asking for something?  What drives it: design? $, ?, or just what?
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JakaB

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2004, 09:04:07 PM »
I think any of the above could provide an equally great course with the right piece of land, owner and membership demography..
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TEPaul

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2004, 09:04:32 PM »
Willie:

Good question!
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Willie_Dow

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Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2004, 09:24:31 PM »
For example, here at Salters we have this piece of great links like land.  We don't want to raise our taxes with a golf course, we have one already - so don't try that Massachusetts!  
 
We don't need more people here, because we are generating our own population.  But our golf course must grow to accomodate ourselves.  We only have six holes.

Who might be the best architect ?
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Joe Hancock

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Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2004, 09:29:59 PM »
Willie,

So your question really is " who is your fav architect?"

I would think you'll get answers like Doak, DeVries, Hanse, etc.....all the guys who know what the old dead guys were doing.

I won't answer on the grounds that it might be construed as kissing hind-end.  ;D

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

A_Clay_Man

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2004, 09:47:18 PM »
Willie- From the peanut gallery, it looks like those who revere the craddle and adhere to core principles, are the best and will do justice to your town. Whoever and whenever.
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Willie_Dow

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Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2004, 08:22:17 PM »
Good response, and I tried my first thought - no response.  This is a small but beautiful location for a Flynn recall.  Certainly, no good for a winter job.  But beautiful fall sunsets.

Not much money though!

Willie

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wsmorrison

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2004, 09:27:45 PM »
What about William Flynn?  If you want to save architect's fees use the Robert Cassatt plans--perfect for your site.  Tom Paul would oversee the layout for a lobster dinner or two.  Mel Lucas will be your construction and grow-in man.  We'll tee it up next year!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2004, 09:28:54 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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paul cowley

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Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2004, 09:58:52 PM »
mr dow....excuse my ignorance , but what and where are you folks talking about ?........i could be of some help if its east of the mississippi ... and if it involves money , i mean cheap [ ie.cheap ] , especially if we match a certain number of random criteria...lobster dinners amoungst friends qualify.

more info por favor .
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mark Brown

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2004, 11:49:10 PM »
Making the most of the site, creatvity, great strategy and spending a lot of time on site like Dye, Bill Coore etc.
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DMoriarty

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2004, 02:28:34 AM »
Jeez Barn, dont let this Fazio fetish turn you into a wet cracker.  Equally great course?  

Tom Fazio and Jack Nicklaus surely dont suffer from lack of access to great land, owners and memberships.  Yet they've never come close to building anything as critically acclaimed as Doak's PD.  But dont take their word for it, I wouldnt.  Go play PD 3 or 4 times then tell me if you still believe your statement.

As for Hanse, neither Nicklaus nor Rustic Canyon would have built anything close to as good under the same circumstances.  

Now maybe the converse could also be said.  For example, perhaps neither Doak nor Hanse would have done as well with Victoria National as Fazio, but then that is not what you claimed, is it?  

You've got to get out more.    
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paul cowley

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Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2004, 06:13:44 AM »
mark ....if your post was an answer to my question ,then you mis-understood it and more importantly understand very little of me or my work.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Donnie Beck

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Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2004, 07:28:29 AM »
Do you really John ???
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JakaB

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2004, 08:10:19 AM »
Quote from: DMoriarty on August 25, 2004, 02:28:34 AM

 Yet they've never come close to building anything as critically acclaimed as Doak's PD.  

David,

Critically acclaimed....that is funny stuff.  I think Bandon Dunes proves my point that there are at least 20 working architects out there that will provide equally great courses...just different....note: this in no way says Bandon is equally great to Pacific.....but it is highly critically acclaimed so that should be good enough for you...my good and media influenced friend..

I should stop now but I just can't....My God David....after spending three years on this site and getting to know the "critics" as well as we have how can you give a damn what is on what list......Remember that next time you read the same ole Golfweek guys saying it is stupid and ignorant to appreciate a top ten Golf Digest course....whose critics pockets are you in.....or are you part of the herd now yourself..Critically acclaimed, critically acclaimed, critically acclaimed....I just can't get it out of my head..
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 08:12:21 AM by John B. Kavanaugh »
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Willie_Dow

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Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2004, 10:28:13 AM »
Wayne

Thanks for the offer by William Flynn, but we should consider the woods and the field north of the tennis courts.

Our six holes with Mel's fairways play great, and just right for the kids.  Especially with the National's 84 inch double row cut from tee to landing area.  It makes the younger set think of hitting it straight rather than long.  They really don't like looking for balls in that fescue rough.

Salters is in New England on Buzzards Bay.

Willie
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DMoriarty

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2004, 11:22:49 AM »
JaK

Yep, you're right.  It was hard to even write the words.  Which is why I divorced myself from them and said you should go see PD for yourself.  So let's agree set the critics well aside.  

Have you ever seen anything that makes you believe that Fazio or Nicklaus could have matched the quality of PD, given the same circumstances?  I havent.  

As for my second comment, it should have read: neither Nicklaus nor Fazio would have come up with as good a course as Rustic under the same circumstances.  But you probably figured that out.  
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JakaB

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2004, 01:56:16 PM »
Quote from: DMoriarty on August 25, 2004, 11:22:49 AM
JaK

Yep, you're right.  It was hard to even write the words.  Which is why I divorced myself from them and said you should go see PD for yourself.  So let's agree set the critics well aside.  
Sorry baby doll but you brung it up so read my next little ditty..
Have you ever seen anything that makes you believe that Fazio or Nicklaus could have matched the quality of PD, given the same circumstances?  I havent.
How about when Dallas National beat out Friars Head for best new....I saw that..  

As for my second comment, it should have read: neither Nicklaus nor Fazio would have come up with as good a course as Rustic under the same circumstances.  But you probably figured that out.
As great an architect as young Mr. Hanse is...if Andy Banfield had been the lead associate on Rustic as an affordable course in the same location with the same directive..Rustic would have already been in the Golfweek top 100....you can book that..unless his young ward would have pisssed of BK in a like manner
 
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Pete Lavallee

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Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2004, 03:57:55 PM »
Willie,

I don't think it's a coincidence that the two best modern links courses in the USA: Pacific Dunes and Rustic Canyon (sure plays like a links, lots of shots played along the ground) were built by two architects who studied the great courses of the UK during their time spent overseas on the Cornell Scholarship program. These are the people you should be looking for.
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"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Willie_Dow

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Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2004, 09:44:30 PM »
Pete I respect you judgement, because you know the area.  The ground, and the growing season.  Come back to New Bedford!
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DMoriarty

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2004, 02:57:42 AM »
Quote from: John B. Kavanaugh on August 25, 2004, 01:56:16 PM

How about when Dallas National beat out Friars Head for best new....I saw that..  

What I saw was Black Rock, and it is an absolute farce that it beat out Friars Head for best new.  Golf Digest has no credibility whatsoever, in my opinion.  

Quote
As great an architect as young Mr. Hanse is...if Andy Banfield had been the lead associate on Rustic as an affordable course in the same location with the same directive..Rustic would have already been in the Golfweek top 100....you can book that..unless his young ward would have pisssed of BK in a like manner
 

I must have missed these qualifiers in your initial statement.    Fazio and company have hundreds of courses under their belts.  If they had any interest in building a great affordable course surely they have had the opportunity.  So which are the great Fazio affordables?  

But I do agree that a Fazio effort had a better chance at GW's top 100 modern, probably as another soon-to-be-has-been systemically cycling in and then out of the bottom half the list.   This doesnt mean much except that GW isnt really much better or different than GD and G.  

I am disappointed that you came out and played Rustic Canyon without contacting me . . .

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JakaB

Re:People vs Architecture
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2004, 05:19:13 AM »
Quote from: DMoriarty on August 27, 2004, 02:57:42 AM

I am disappointed that you came out and played Rustic Canyon without contacting me . . .



I would never do anything so rude...
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