[Bill_McBride]

[with apologies to Kevin Costner and the film's owners]

The scene: 18th hole at Whistling Straits, the biggest tournament of Justin Leonard's career.  One shot lead, if he wins, he's the PGA champ and makes the Ryder Cup team.  200 plus yards to the pin.

"TIN CUP" LEONARD:   Gimme the five.

"CHEECH":  Are you crazy, Roy, er Justin? Hit the four.  Don't be crazy, hit the four.

"TIN CUP" LEONARD:   Gimme the five.

"CHEECH":   Are you crazy?  Think what you're saying, Roy, er Justin.  You can win this thing but you can't hit a five iron that far under normal circumstances.  There's room behind the pin.  Hit the four.

"TIN CUP" LEONARD:  Gimme the five.

"CHEECH":   Okay, this time, but you better not do this again.  You'll be living in that trailer at the driving range again.

"TIN CUP" LEONARD:  Gimme the five.

[fade to black]

[RJ_Daley]

Bill get real, that stuff only happens in the movies!

[David Wigler]

Bill,

I posted this on antoher thread but you are right, it deserves its own topic.  It was not just one Tin Cup play though, it was three in four holes with the tournament on the line.

#18 yesterday in regulation, 204 to the hole, 5-iron comes up short - bogey.  #17 in playoff, 236 to the hole, 3-iron comes up way short - great par save.  #18 in playoff, 201 to the hole, 5-iron comes up way short, probably bogey, either way tournament over.

If Leonard plays 4-Iron, driving iron/5-wood, 4-iron, he might have won his second major.  At minimum, he should fire the caddy for letting him hit 5-iron a second time into 18.

[TEPaul]

The only difference in that analogy is Cheech really did say "Are you Crazy, hit the ...." but Tin Cup kept saying "Give me the five". In Leonard's case his caddy was apparently in complete agreement with him---TWICE!

I swear to God there's something unique and strange about that second shot into that section of WS's 18th green---even the commentators on #18 looking at group after group come through were mentioning there was something deceptively odd or unique about that particular shot, so many were hitting what they expected to get them there and hitting it well and still coming up short.

Those tour caddies have every imaginable yardage from everywhere to everywhere else anyway so something was odd about that shot. You ask a tour caddie what the yardage is from the porto-pottie to carry on the line to the pin and he'd be able to tell you it's 197 yards!!

Plus, Justin Leonard is no Tin Cup--he's one of the best course manager in the history of tournament golf---he sort of has to be to have had his career. He's also always been one of the best and most effective iron players ever, including long irons.

We need to remember too that Leonard made a real move on VJ in that final round. VJ probably somehow felt throughout the day that tournament was his to win---afterall he was leading going into Sunday.

In the end it may have been a bit like Mickelson in the Masters who said although he fell behind during the final round he always felt the tournament was his to win. I'm quite sure VJ probably felt the same way all day Sunday at the PGA.

It interesting how many of those tour players look at the ebb and flow of a tournament Sunday differently than we the TV viewers do. This thing they call "patience" really does play a far large part of their general strategies than most of us realize.

We, as fans sort of expect most all those players to do most everything right but those sophisticated tour players know that never happens with either them or their fellow competitors. No one in my memory was more intuitive and profiicient about that sixth sense than Nicklaus. It was one of the best reasons he managed to win 18 majors but ironically (and also instructively why he happened to finish second in about 18 majors too!). Very likely in those numerous second place finishes Jack may have done exactly what he planned to do---the only problem was somebody didn't do what he expected they probably would do at some point in the final round!

[Paul Richards]

Tom

Great point.

When Justin pulled that 5-iron during the playoff, we all groaned.  

 

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Bill,

I posted this on antoher thread but you are right, it deserves its own topic.  It was not just one Tin Cup play though, it was three in four holes with the tournament on the line.

#18 yesterday in regulation, 204 to the hole, 5-iron comes up short - bogey.  #17 in playoff, 236 to the hole, 3-iron comes up way short - great par save.  #18 in playoff, 201 to the hole, 5-iron comes up way short, probably bogey, either way tournament over.

If Leonard plays 4-Iron, driving iron/5-wood, 4-iron, he might have won his second major.  At minimum, he should fire the caddy for letting him hit 5-iron a second time into 18.

It's always the caddy's fault...

;>

JWK

[David Wigler]

James,

I am only half kidding about the caddie.  Even at my semi-competative amateur level, I have a caddie who helps me at every tournament.  I shoot three to four strokes better with him on the bag because he knows me and my game and refuses to hand me clubs when I want to play stupid.  

It is clearly the players fault, but Justin's caddie earned about $27,500 for the four days and has earned about $65,000 for the year.  For that kind of jack, he better be able to say "You proved last time you can't hit a frickin 5-iron 205, I am only giving you the 4."

[Brian_Gracely]

People are focused on the wrong shot.  The 2nd approach on #18 for Leonard was essentially irrelevant.....nobody was making birdie on #18 all day (and rarely all week).  The poor choice was the initial 5i.  If he plays it to the middle of the green (he claimed to be shooting for the pin), then short of target would still be on the green, and a proper shot gives him a reasonable chance to two-putt and win.

Going for the pin, with 3i-5i made NO SENSE....why bring all that trouble on the left into play?

[A.G._Crockett]

Brian is right; Leonard had no choice on the 2nd go-round on 18 except the 5 iron hit right at the pin.  That was a do-or-die play with Singh up close and leading by one.  The bad decision was underclubbing on an aggressive line the first time through.  

I wonder if maybe Leonard was factoring in adrenaline; perhaps he had hit some shots farther than his normal yardages in the preceeding holes, such as the fairway wood on the last par five.  Anyway, a mystifying mistake for a great course manager.

[Paul Richards]

Brian

You are spot-on.

Although Els and Riley both 3-jacked from that 'safe' spot to the right....

 

[Brian Phillips]

Tom P,

One of the first things Justin's caddie said was there is loads of room behind the flag...he let him know without putting doubt in his head.  Justin should not have even gone for the flag on the 72nd hole but played to the right and try to two putt.

Caddie did the right job after the decision was made and left him with no doubts..

Brian

[Doug Siebert]

Pros sometimes make up weird combinations of clubs to suit a course.  Perhaps he didn't have a 4i in his bag because he put in a lofted fairway wood or something?

Didn't Hogan once play a tournament without a 7i because he said there were no 7i shots on the course?

[Mike Hendren]

Doug,

Let's assume it's Hogan and he doesn't have the 4-iron.  His only decision is whether to hit a) a cut fade with the 3-iron; or b) a hard draw with the 5-iron.  He likely makes 4 with either club.  

There's only one good reason Leonard did not take more club -he feared the downhill putt under such pressure.  

There's only one good reason he did not play well right - he feared three-putting.  

FWIW, I did like Lanny's estimation that Leonard gets up-and-down 7 out of 10 times from where he played his third in regulation.

Mike

[Buck Wolter]

I heard someone surmise that the huge size of the 18th Green may have thrown off the player's perception of the yardage making it look shorter than it was. The green is also significantly downhill from the fairway so a 200 yard 5 iron doesn't seem out of line for Justin. Why he was aiming at the flag is another question it would seem his normal draw up the middle would have left him a long putt but who knows what you'll get short of that green.

I was at the tourney Friday and Saturday and we watched the last 4 groups Saturday play the 18th from the bleachers. From up there it was hard to believe they would put the hole in that spot which was the rumor in the stands. My reaction was that if they put the cup where they did they'd be setting it up for someone to lose with a bogey rather than win with a bridie and that's basically what happened. One guy in the bleachers had watched the hole from Tiger on Saturday and there were no birdies with the pin back right which was much easier.

I think I'd like the 18th green if there were some interesting contours that allowed you to use the slope to get from the front to the back left and they got rid of one of the lobes. 18 looked pretty flat internally. I don't think a green where there are lot's of chip shots to get to the flag is particularly well thought out. As soon as the round was over they came out with a cup cutter and some plugs from a nursery green to replace the divots -- I don't think many greenskeepers would be happy having to do that on a daily basis -- I wonder if there's a local rule there for daily play?

Buck

[peter_mcknight]

If I remember correctly, Justin had 204 to the pin on the 72d hole and 200 for the playoff.  Considering he just missed during regulation by a yard or so, with 4 less yards and the same swing and contact, it should have been enough.  I say he lost because of the bogey on the par 5 16th, not because of his play on 18 during regulation.

[Bill_McBride]

16 was obviously a big error, but he had a one shot lead hitting that 2nd to 18.  Why not take the front out of play if you are trying to make par and win the PGA and make the Ryder Cup?  My alleged discussion between Tin Cup Leonard and his caddy Cheech involved 18 during regulation, not in the playoff.   Hit the 4 iron 25' past, two putt, and you're a hero.  Why flirt with trouble in front?  

Of course, needless to say, he's there and I'm typing away in my den!

[TEPaul]

Come on guys, you know these tour pros, they didn't get where they are by making stupid mental errors at the 11th hour. Leonard picked what he thought was the right club which includes to them a a little room for error both distance and direction-wise. Leonard, like a lot of tour pros coming into #18 green ahead of him seemed surprised by coming up short. There's something about the approach to that hole and that part of that green that isn't computing correctly. Too many Sunday competitors seemed to think they'd calucated correctly and pulled off the shot and it didn't work out. There's something going on there that's really deceptive. Next time they hold a major there I can almost guarantee this kind of thing won't happen again to that extent.

These guys and their caddies do their homework! If Leonard made a mistake on his approach (twice) I can guarantee he didn't think he did it in his calculations, in his execution or when the the ball was in the air!

[Bill_McBride]

I would agree if he had only made that mistake once, but repeating the underclubbing three holes later?  Given how short he was the first time, and that he needed to make birdie to stay alive in the playoff, how do you account for no longer club selection the second time?  I agree that Justin Leonard is a super course manager, that's why I'm so surprised!

[John_Conley]

A friend gave me a yardage book the week of the tournament.  It was great to help me understand the lines of play.  Hole 18 is called Dyeabolical.  The hole location certainly was.  I couldn't believe some co-workers called Leonard's play a choke-job - just like I can't agree with an above post that mentions "three jacking" on the last green from short and right of the hole.  The course was set up in such a fashion to extract these types of "mistakes" from the world's best players.  A State Am field would probably average 5 on the 18th with that hole location.  As it was, Tour players playing well averaged way over par.

[Doug_Feeney]

Want a perfect example of how to play the 18th with a one shot lead?  Watch Vijay in the playoff.  His decision was easier being 240 out, but hit it safe right of the pin and force your opponent to birdie a nearly un-birdieable hole to beat you.

When Lanny Wadkins said Leonard gets up and down 7 out of 10 times, he is commenting from the tower and has no idea how thick the grass is down there.  Feherty sees the lie and says that it's not on the upslope and there is quite a bit of grass behind the ball.  

Wadkins is the same one who commented before Leonard hit his second on 18 in regulation that the only place he couldn't miss was short.  I was amazed Leonard came up short in regulation, but was even more amazed he hit the same club as Vijay on 17 in the playoff - which wasn't even close but didn't wind up hurting him.

[TEPaul]

Isn't "Monday morning quarterbacking" a bundle of fun?

[Dennis_Harwood]

"Nerves of steel--Priceless!"

How many times did we see that commercial of Mastercard showing Justin's iron shot on the 72nd hole of the Open which preserved his one stroke lead in his 1998 victory--

I don't know what iron he hit then, but if it was a 5 it may explain his choice on the 72nd in the PGA.  Players tend to return to positive mental images and if one of his "great shots" in his career was with a 5 iron under pressure, he would tend to want to repeat that experience--

[TEPaul]

Dennis:

It probably isn't a real good idea for any of today's tour players to sort of fall in love with any of their irons particularly. It's pretty important they both know and trust what they'll all do in any given situation.

This reminds me of something Tommy Armour used to do when he taught particularly women. The first thing he'd ask a student who'd never been to him before is if there were any clubs in her bag she didn't like.

My aunt went to him one time at the old Delray Beach C.C. for a lesson and he asked her that question. She said;

"I don't like my 6 iron Tommy."

So Tommy put down his gin buck, got up out of his director's chair, went over to her bag grabbed her 6 iron and hurled it into the bushes, went back and picked up his gin buck, sat down in his director's chair and said;

"Well you don't need to worry about that anymore!"

[Buck Wolter]

If I recall correctly 1 year ago this week Tom Doak started a thread that lamented the fact that architecture is basically lost on the pros because they can dial in their clubs ala Shaun Micheel on the 72nd hole.

Maybe it's the difference between a 7 iron and a 4 iron , maybe the difference between Micheel and Leonard, or maybe it's the difference between Oak Hill and Whistling Straits.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride, et. al.,

You ballbeaters are great monday morning quarterbacks.

How about when Greg Norman came to the 72nd hole at the Masters and had to decide between a hard 5 or an easy 4 iron, he chose the 4 iron, layed off of it, hit it right and ended up losing the tournament.

Justin Leonard didn't arrive at the 72nd hole of the PGA with a one shot lead because he didn't go with his instincts, his playing feel during the course of the tournament.

So now all you second rate, second guessers are positive that if he hit the 4 iron he would have hit it with confidence, and perfectly.  YET, HE DIDN'T FEEL THAT WAY, AND HE'S A BETTER PLAYER THEN ANYONE ON THIS SITE, and the way he felt brought him to the 72nd hole with a one shot lead.

If his ball hits two feet to the right, he's in perfect position.

So, unless you've been there and played at the highest of competitive levels, don't try to tell a guy who's playing better then all of the BEST players in the world, what club to hit, and how and where to hit it.

How do you know that if he hit the 4 iron he wouldn't have pulled it, or pushed it into even more trouble ?

Mike Hendren,

From 208 or 217 into the wind, Hogan would have had to have hit a very good three wood, when he was playing his best.

And, I don't believe Hogan ever left any clubs out of his bag.
He wasn't that stupid or omniscient

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