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Brian_Gracely

When are steps needed for a bunker?
« on: August 05, 2004, 10:54:32 AM »
Is there an architect (or legal) rule of thumb about when steps should be added for accessing a bunker?  For example, I'm looking a desktop-calendar picture of the Cardinal bunker at Prestwick and the area with steps is only about 2-3' deep.  But they some pot bunkers at various links courses are deeper and have no steps.

Is it a depth issue, or steepness of the face or composition of the bunker face, etc that would suggest steps are needed?  

Mostly just curious....I think it's a neat looking aspect of certain courses.  
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TEPaul

Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2004, 11:10:10 AM »
The general architectural formula or architectural rule of thumb for when steps in a bunker are needed is when members begin to complain they're have a hard time getting into and out of the bunker!!    ;)

But personally, I'm for none of this steps in a bunker nonsense. To me there's nothing finer than seeing an 80 year old man or woman stuck in a bunker unable to get out. If I'm around I'm more than willing to help them out but never for less than $25.00!
« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 11:13:20 AM by TEPaul »
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2004, 11:32:55 AM »
I don't really like to see steps in a bunker because there is always the slim chance that a ball will wind up on the steps, and I don't want to encourage putting the player's hands on the ball near a hazard.

However, if the edge of the bunker is breaking down from people's attempts to climb out of it, then steps are in order.  There are a handful at Pacific Dunes for that reason.
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Jay Carstens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2004, 06:44:59 PM »
Where does the Americans With Disabilites Act (ADA) come in?  Does it ever apply to bunkers?  
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Play the course as you find it

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2004, 07:40:17 PM »
Jay,
What, are we supposed to build handicap ramps for bunkers now?
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the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Jay Carstens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2004, 08:03:41 PM »
Matt-
I don't know.  Honestly it popped in to my head when I read the subject.  I was just wondering if it could apply to newly constructed steps, that's all.  
At least it's an architecture question.  ;)
JC  
   
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Play the course as you find it

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2004, 08:27:14 PM »
Jay,

I'm sure Jeff Brauer can answer this question better than me, because he has always seemed more familiar with the ADA.  But, I believe as the law was finally adapted for golf courses, that bunkers are exempted from accessibility.
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Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2004, 08:30:27 PM »
I do hope that you folks have more sensitivity to folks with disabilites than your posts indicate, unless I misinterpreted.  Anyway, ADA requires "reasonable accomodations".  Steps would not be required in a bunker as it would alter the playing characteristics and would likely be deemed beyond a reasonable accomodation. Perhaps the appropriate accomodation is a mulligan without penalty if you have a disability and hit it into a bunker.  ;) At the same time please have sensitivity to those who do need accomodations, such as carts getting a bit closer to greens than allowed for others, etc. Yes, Matt, those in wheelchairs do benefit from ramps to access buildings that the able bodied never think about having difficulty entering. I don't mean to be attacking but sensitivity and empathy never hurt.

Cliff
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Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2004, 09:39:34 PM »
Cliff

I'm sorry if my post came off as insensitive, I honeslty wasn't trying to be. People with disabilities have every right for service that will accomodate them. I was just trying to say that it never crossed my mind that an architect would design bunkers so disabled people could use them. I mean if a guy wants to play golf in his wheelchair he shouldnt complain that he can't drive into a bunker. (probably an extreme case)
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the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2004, 09:49:45 PM »
Hi Matt

This is an issue I can be quite sensitive to.  I don't disagree.  If you're diabled don't expect ramps to the bottom of the Grand Canyon.  Architects should not consider the disabled when building golf courses.  Golf courses though should go out of their way to make appropraite and reasonable accomodation so that all can enjoy no matter what challenges they face.  It's an area in which we have made great progress.  To get back the topic at hand when a course has steps in the bunkers I know I sure want to avoid them :).

Cliff
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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2004, 03:33:22 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 05, 2004, 11:32:55 AM
I don't really like to see steps in a bunker because there is always the slim chance that a ball will wind up on the steps, and I don't want to encourage putting the player's hands on the ball near a hazard.

I just played a par 3 in Clementon, New Jersey that required stairs to get in and out of the bunker.  As near as I could tell, the stairs seemed to be the most desirable place to play from in the bunker!  ;D

Carlyle
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Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2004, 03:56:47 PM »
Here is an article that addresses ADA and golf courses.  As noted above, it appears that bunkers generally do not need to be compliant.

ADA and Golf Courses written in March 1999
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"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

LenBum

Re:When are steps needed for a bunker?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2004, 07:48:37 PM »
The 11th hole at Shinnecock Hills has a set of steps set into the bank of the left greenside bunker. They have been there a long time and I don't ever remember a ball getting trapped underneath the steps...........something that very well could happen. If you hit your ball into the bunker and the ladder is in the way..............too bad. Take a swing or take an unplayable. :)
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