Thanks you to GCA for the tip  about Forsgate - I would have probably missed this Charles Banks gem- deserving of its top 10 ranking. Many other debates to follow

my thoughts on a couple:

Somerset Hills is ranked too low as are Atlantic City and Hidden Creek and throw Forsgate Banks Course into the mix.
Baltusrol ranked too high - let the flames begin
#1 is a no brainer- game , set, match

Matt,

I like the look of the list .

I would, however, put Somerset Hills in the top 5.

John

Matt:
My random observations.

Medford Village seemed to fall the most?

4 courses that didn't make the list.

TPC Jasna Polana - it must be really bad
Deal - nice classic course
Bedans Brook - hidden Dick Wilson gem
Cherry Valley - it also must be bad

What did Gil do at Essex County?

Pat:

The Knoll is fortunate to be rated as high as it is because of what Charles Banks initially provided. The course is still waiting for the efforts of George Bahto go full steam ahead.

I personally like the course very much and to be a bit self promoting -- it was The Jersey Golfer that has had The Knoll among the top ten public courses in the Garden State -- not the other major publications.

The Knoll is in serious need of a major makeover -- not changes for the sake of changes but a makeover by someone who thoroughly understands what the Banks mission was all about. George knows this and if the powers-that-be at The Knoll get him in there for 100% of his time and knowledge the end result will certainly be a plus for all.

John Lovito:

Somerset Hills receives plenty of support but consider this -- all of the par-5's are at best average (I'll concede the 9th to a small degree), the par-3 12th over the water is a tad overrated, and the finishing two holes are really low level quality holes. Yes, the green sites on many of the holes are well done -- the redan 2nd is marvelous and the 11th is one of Jersey's best mid-length par-4's. When a course cracks the top five it needs to be as air-tight as one can be -- in my mind, and from the comments of the majority of the raters involved Somerset Hills falls a bit short. You also need to assess Somerset Hills against other courses of similar length like Montclair's #2 & #4 nines to see what I mean.

Joel S:

Appreciate the comments ... my reaction ...

Deal is a neat member's course but there are plenty in Jersey beyond it. Two layouts in northern NJ that many miss is the Willie Tucker designed Preakness Hills in Wayne and also in the same town North Jersey CC (Travis designed). Both are considerably ahead of Deal IMHO, to name just two examples.

TPC Jasna Polana -- was rated in the top 50 last time but much of the comments indicated a real displeasure with the nature of the holes and the green sites are truly lacking any real sophistication. If you want to see a  much better Player course go to the Phillie area and play The Ace Club -- it's a design that Warren Henderson played a leading role with Gary.

Cherry Valley and Bedens Brook are OK layouts at best. The stock of the courses chosen is beyond the two you mentioned.

Regarding Essex County -- Gil and George played leading roles in eliminating the vast amount of trees and underbrush that had taken over the beautiful property that is there. George also made it a point to return the bunkers to their true "steep and deep" mantra that Banks firmly believed. In many of the bunkers now at Essex County you face 15 feet high explosions shots in a number of instances -- there are no automatic easy recoveries now.

George also played a major role in rejuvenating the lifeless front nine. Much of the attention on Essex County rightly goes to the back nine -- a classic set of holes comparable to the likes of Pine Valley and Plainfield -- and that's no hyperbole.

The front nine starts slowly with the first two holes but you need to score early because the rest of the side gives away few opportunities. Here you have a layout touched by the likes of Tillinghast, Raynor and Banks and for too long languished because it needed the hand of two men who completely understand what was originally intended.

What's interesting to note -- Gil has now played a leading role with the #2 and #3 courses in New Jersey with Plainfield and Essex County respectively in terms of restoration work.

P.S. For those who would like a copy of the article of Jersey's Fabullous 50 simply send me an e-mail and I can forward you the magazine's address. You will simply need to provide a SAS envelope.

Evan:

The reaction by many of the raters to the "changes" made at Baltusrol for the upcoming '05 PGA were lukewarm at best and downright dismissive at worst. The course is morphing into something beyond what was originally intended with the clear aim in being a real test for the world's best next August.

Regarding Somerset Hills -- the issue for many who live outside New Jersey is that soooooooooooooo few people really play anything here beyodn the usual suspects (e.g. PV, Plainfield, Baltusrol, Somerset Hills). The depth of quality courses in the Garden State is quite high for such a small state and likely is better than nearly all of the other states save for the likes of places like New York, California, Pennsy, to name just a few.

I don't doubt the qualities of Somerset Hills but the layuot DOES have its limitations -- see my post above. There are other quality layouts that are not long like SH but have no less the architectural depth that many see with the course in Bernardsville.

Matt,

How would Essex County West fare if Gil and George were to restore it ?

Matt Ward-

I grew up in Long Branch, NJ and actually worked 4 summers for the TENNIS pro at Hollywood GC. I never did play a round of golf on the course.

I am curious what you know & think of the Rumson CC course. Although I know nothing about it, I somehow expected it would have been in the Top 50.

DT

I think Galloway National has a lot of very good holes but if routing counts for anything in golf architecture that alone should take Galloway National down significantly in that company, in my book!

    The routing was deliberate, from one NASTY black fly swarm to another!

I can honestly say after attending my greens committee meeting last night with Ron Forse detailing some of his ideas for Alpine Country Club that we will not be #25 in the state for much longer!  We'll be moving on up.

We are starting our restoration project on the front 9 in about 2.5 weeks.  3 holes should have restored bunkers schemes by the end of the golf season (although a fair amount of ground under repair).  By the start of next year, we should have another 250+ trees down on the back 9, restored bunkering on the front 9 that is Tillie like and the restoration of some unique features that were originally built (a sort of reverse redan kick in feature on the par 3 8th hole).  The course will still be a work in progress until 2 years when all of the course has restored bunkers.  Two very controversial greens (#6--not original Tillie and #10 will be reworked--I am not in favor of #10 as it is original) in the next few years as well..

After all of this is done, I believe Alpine will be in the top 15 in the state and could be nearer to #10 than #15.  We have Jeff Porteas (sp?) as our contractor who did the shaping and bunker work at Fenway--which was spectacular.

Some sad points:  There are a small contingent of low handicap members that want the course to be more "fair" who want to continue to change greens and build fairway bunkers.  They really don't care about the Tillie pedigree.   Thankfully, they were nullified at last night's meeting.  Tillinghast did not build fairway bunkers at Alpine (although subsequent greens committees felt obligated to build them on 2 holes--which serve but nothing to add framing) and they are not needed.

I don't know how long I'll be at Alpine as the club is prohibitively expensive but maybe just maybe they are beginning to see how unique of a course they have.  I was able to win the battle to get Tillie's original plans up in the clubhouse (they are up right as you walk in) and I'm hoping to have the scorecard reflected to show AW Tillinghast as the Archie in 1928 and restored by Ron Forse (2005) by the end of this project.

Mike Sweeney:

My personal listing for Jersey is a good bit different than the actual results that came from the poll.

Mike, if you search your memory banks -- it was I who opened your NY eyes to the merits of the Banks Course at Forsgate!

Noel:

Alpine needs to make the CHANGES before we get to all the chest beating about how high it should be. The course still lacks a series of strong par-4's -- there are way too many similar short par-4's -- especially on the back nine and the three par-3's are OK but far from memorable when compared to other Tillie courses.

Alpine also needs to cut down dramatically the amount of water applied to the turf -- it is always way too soft and slow.

Clearly, the new bunkering plan will really add a great deal to the course but until the work is done in concert with a few other items the idea that the course will crack the top 15 is really getting ahead of oneself. The bar for all Jersey courses is rising and if you look at the collective work carried out at Plainfield and Essex County that is the game plan other courses need to examine closely.

David Tepper:

Agree with Pat on the sporty nature of Rumson but it being left outside of the top 50 is no accident or cause for concern. The other courses in Jersey are simply better. Keep in mind that others beyond Rumson -- Preakness Hills and North Jersey CC, to name just two were also left out. Ditto Knickerbocker in Tenafly.

Pat:

Regarding your question on Essex County West (now Francis Bryne) I don't know how much Gil / George could do since the private club hikacked land from the public course before the county purchased it. The old 7th hole has been considerably shortened from its original days and the downhill 8th is also much shorter.

Clearly, the West in its original days could have been equal or beyond the East but your point is well taken. Given the right amount of $$ and go aheads to do a first rate job it's very possible that the West could return to the top tier of Jersey public courses. The bunkering scheme that Banks put in was well done and no less than Bobby Jones rated the 15th course on the West as one of the finest par-4's he ever played.

However, with all that said -- Francis Bryne is run by Essex County government and one can only wonder what they are thinking regarding the property.

Galloway is easily among the best TF designs IMHO. The layout is quite strong but it's not gushed up with all the false lipstick that sometimes becomes the mantra for TF layouts. The course can be a royal pain in the ass to play when the greenheads and mosquitos are swarming about.

Galloway has a solid mixture of holes and frankly I don't know what the fuss is all about the routing there. It's not the old style where you go from the last green immediately to the next tee but it's not impossible to walk by any means.

The sad reality is that few people have really played Galloway more than once to really appreciate its qualities.

Regarding Metedeconk -- I still like the course but I do agree with those who have said in our findings that the layout is more about demands / difficulty and has little on the charm & character front.

One last item -- Bedens Brook is a fine course WHEN / IF they do the upgrades, restorations, cal it what you will, I am sure people will take a look at it again. Right now -- no way jose!

Paul Tuner:

Look at the collective nature of Somerset Hills and you find major gaps ...

1). The overrated par-3 12th

2). The weakness of all the par-5's -- the 9th is OK and other others are low brow stuff.

3). The course has a major league weak finish. The 17th and 18th holes are are simply second rate.

Don't doubt the green contours of Somerset Hills but Paul you need to see the qualities of the others that are right there with it -- like Montclair, Forsgate, Essex County and Hollywood.

The issue for many people is that they have only played a limited sampling of the best courses in the Garden State. Somerset Hills is an exceptional course but IMHO it is nowhere near the likes of the totality of Plainfield -- even more so now than Gil has finished his work there.

Paul -- please educate me on the Ross courses in Mass that are way beyond the likes of Plainfield. I'd like to see how long that list is. Thanks!

Jerry K:

The Ridge at Back Brook was rated in the seond 25 by our panel of raters. Yes, it is a TF design and clearly some of the folks were impressed with it. No one though had the course among their personal 25 though.

Noel:

Touche'!

A rebuttal if you willl.

The trees on the right side of #1 need to be chopped back because the fairway cants to the left as you know and the fairway is at best 22-25 yards wide. A bit more width is called for on that hole and it will be even better.

Second, the 6th green needs to be altered and the hole will play much fairer. The silly green now eliminates much of the skill factor -- particularly when the front (red) pin is in play.

You still can't refute me on the par-3's and the par-5's are simply OK stuff -- nothing memorable. I do like the closing 18th but the fairway cutoff with the rough is simply an amateurish addition to the hole.

I don't doubt the 13th is a fine hole but the course lacks anything memorable that would jack it up to the top tier of courses IMHO. Not that anything is really bad but nothing there is really stellar. Hell, you and I agree on the 10th although I don't doubt that a gentle softening of the back third of the green will not minimize the sheer qualities the hole possesses.

Noel -- when you talk about great long par-4's you need to see Essex County because it has a superb collection of them. Ditto Mountain Ridge and Baltusrol / Lower to see what I am talking about.

One other thing -- you didn't mention any retort to my comments on the course generally being way tooooooo soft --even without all the recent rain we have had.

Like I said -- let's see when the smoke clears and then we can assess what Alpine is versus that of the other state courses. Good things have been done to date but there's still plenty on the plate that will ultimately determine the fate of the course IMHO.

Matt, Matt, Matt


I think you've been imbibing some of the wacki tabacki again.

Of course I think Alpine is overwatered, you know that but that shouldnt take away from its architecture..Although it does affect it.. FYI, before the 6 inches of rain we had recently, the course was brown in spots!  It was rolling terrific and Geoff Childs and Corey Miller noted that.. In fact, you were caddying that day Matt!

I agree the 6th green should be changed and guess what in the next 2 years it will be made more subtle and playable.  I don't think #10 will be changed, Ron Forse said it might make the hill in back of the green too steep if we flatten the back of the green. I agree wholeheartedly with Miguel Cirba.. IT IS UNIQUE AND LETS KEEP it..

#9 and #18 are both visually stunning holes.  I think #9 is a great gambit to go for it in 2 and can you honestly tell me Matt that the vortex present in that green in not spectacular plus the pimple in the center right of the green makes for dicey putts.  I think #9 is a very good par 5!  Its elevation change makes it very memorable as well, the same with the 18th.  Tillie knew what he was doing when he routed the course that way.. I really disagree with you here--you'd prefer to see a flashy crossbunker on #18 and Tillie didnt put it there for a reason-- THE TERRAIN!  Follow the TERRAIN Matt!  

Completely disagree on the par 3's especially post restoration.. #5 is a cute par 3 which will have amazing bunkers when we are done--have you seen the aerial.. Plus the uphill nature of it is unique.

#8 will have the reverse redanish kick in feature restored and is a very challenging shot with a 3 to 5 iron..

What's wrong with #16.. Absolutely nothing.. It isnt stunning but it is solid.

Everyone who I've taken to Alpine thinks it is better than they thought and this includes GCA guys.

With enough work by Forse, you'll see.