[Jack_Marr]

I was reading an interesting interview with Tom Doak in travelgolf.com. I know I always bang on about this, but they mention a possible project in Dingle in the "U.K."!!

Jesus, America is more part of the U.K. than Ireland is. I know I keep going on about this, but it's like saying France is part of Germany because it was occupied during WWII. Then there's reference to planning laws in the U.K., which, needless to say, has nothing to do with planning laws in the Republic of Ireland.

Anyway, I hope this project is approved. I hope the Coore and Crenshaw project is not, as it will be a private club etc. I don't think Ireland should be turned into a theme park for rich people to visit at the expense of the land.

On another topic, I've heard people talk for years about how little links land there is left in Ireland to build courses. Every year, there seems to be more and more sites "discovered." How many more great sites are out there?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think Ireland has many great sites left to build on. However, the infrastructure of the island is so poor that I am not sure of the viability of many projects.

[Jack_Marr]

Well you're right about the infrastructure, but to Irish golfers, that doesn't matter at all. I don't know anyone over here who says they won't play a golf course because the road going into it is bad. To be honest, if it's a good course, they'd travel to it by shank's mare. Of course, it would affect foreign visitors, which they probably depend on.

[Sean Walsh]

I take it this project would be a totally new course and not a reworking of Ceann Sibeal.  

I must say the Ceann Sibeal (although the scenery was great) was a bit of a disappointment.

[Jack_Marr]

Yeah, these courses are planned for Castlegregory, I think. Ceann Sibeal is a bit uninteresting. It's all quite flat.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jack, I think we all feel the same but time is important to people. It is very hard and time consuming to travel to the west coast more than 50 miles from Shannon.

[Jack_Marr]

tiger

Yeah, it is important when you are trying to stick to a schedule. Accomadation is also I problem around the more remote courses. I think there's something nice about driving through a bog to find a good links, though.

[TEPaul]

If this is the same "side by side" projects Doak and Coore and Crenshaw are slated to do, I can't imagine why anyone would want Coore and Crenshaw's private one to be shot down. What's that all about---some kind of ultra socialism in golf in Ireland? Wouldn't it be better to see that both got built and then perhaps the private one may turn public someday?

I can't remember who the famous writer was, perhaps Herbert Warren Wind, but Coore mentioned the other day that Wind (or some famous golf writer from days past) decades ago came upon this land that these two courses are slated to be built on (or at least the land of one of them) and remarked that land just could be the most perfect linksland for golf in the world!

If that's true I hope no one suggests either course be shot down for any reason!!

[Jack_Marr]

It would be great if it was built and opened to the public - that's what I would like. That is not going to happen. I wonder how many Irish golfers will be able to play it. I wonder how many locals will become members.

I don't doubt C&C would do a brilliant job, but it's the kind of golf club I personally would not like to take hold over here. I don't begrudge the owners a successful golf course, and if they get planning, good luck to them.

The members would be able to play any other golf course in Ireland, but members of all those other courses would not be able to play theirs.

Anyway, my real point is that the article and Tom Doak both referred to Kerry as being in the United Kingdom.

[TEPaul]

Jack:

My hope is that Ireland has not become so socialistic that they would actually shoot down a perfectly good golf course simply because it might be private. I doubt Ireland is at that point they care to deny capitalism. What they may do, however, is figure out a good economic way to ensure more public golf courses in Ireland. And that doesn't necessarily have to involve some requirement to shoot down all private ones as well!

Ireland is not a particularly big country but the last time I was there (not long ago) there was still a ton of land left for golf in the Emerald Isle!

[Jack_Marr]

Tom

This may sound like a cliche at this stage, but the connection between the people and the land in Ireland is immense. Most of our famous writers represented it. I think we have the highest percentage of home owneship in Euorpe. Indeed, in older times, it was understood that the farmers kept the land in trust for the people. This means much more to Irish people than it would to any other people.

This is a beatiful piece of land on our coast. This land is limited. Who will be joining this club? Not too many Irish people, I'd imagine.

Imagine if the burren was bought and keep out signs put around it.

To get planning permission, you have to satisfy a number of criteria. Hopefully they'll insist it be open to the public if it goes ahead.

This is not about begrudging wealthy people their success. Why should I wish they build a course I can't play when I can wish they build a course I can play?

And I'm anything but socialist.

[David_Tepper]

There was a 5-page article in the Jan/Feb issue of Travel&Leisure golf about Tom Doak and the Castlegregory project. The name of the article is "Mr. Natural." You can find it at:

www.travelandleisure.com/tlgolf/archive.cfm

By the way, given how the locals have been denied the access promised to the Old Head property, you can certainly understand the reluctance of the Irish people to see more "Keep Out" signs posted on their coastline.

[RJ_Daley]

Jack Marr, I believe in what you say 100%.  

In a somewhat ironic and similar discussion recently on another thread, Tony Chapman noted how the Coore-Crenshaw masterpiece, Sand Hills had a few years where residents of Nebraska were offered the opportunity to write a letter to Mr. Kidd (the pro) and/or Mr Youngscap (the owner) and receive an invite to play.  Then (probably because of more restrictive tax regulations and controversy on private not-for-profit status and so forth) the opportunity for Nebraska residents to seek an invitation and privledge to play went by the wayside.  Yet, Nebraskan's are darn proud that such a masterpiece of golf is in their state.  So, where is the balance?

I believe that the manner in which Jack Marr presents the Irish view of their land and property rights is one that is born out of their experience and traditions, and we should quit trying to impose an American model of these concepts on them by introducing our greater affinity towards exclusivity and privacy.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jack, please do not get me wrong. I love the remotness and the beauty of the west coast. However, things I find  pleasure in and projects which are economically sound are not always the same.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Paul:

Put me down as someone sympathetic to the point of view Jack Marr has expressed. To me golf in Ireland goes way beyond the architectural value of its many fine courses. Irish golf IS something different, something better than what we typically enjoy here in the States. There is a social quality to it - notice I said "social" not socialist - that we can't quite match.

As someone who loves golf architecture, I'm surely hoping the two proposed courses in Castlegregory get built. But, one can't lose sight of the bad feeling a project like The Old Head has left in the minds of many Irish golfers. The tall iron gates send a message loud and clear to locals: stay out. So, the place has really become divorced from Irish golf, testimony to the fact that geography - even a stunning place like The Old Head - quite replace the state of mind one finds during  members time at Ballybunion.

From my many trips to Ireland, I can say without hesitation that the more we Americanize Irish golf, the more we visiting Americans lose, not to mention the impact on locals.

Tim

[TEPaul]

Guys, particularly Jack Marr:

I have zero interest in Americanizing Irish golf. I surely don't know the culture of Ireland and it's attachment to the land or golf in Ireland for everyone like Jack clearly does. I respect the cultural ways of any land---and I surely don't want to Americanize any of them. If building a private golf course next to Doak's public course (Coore told me how they happened to get the private one and Doak the public one about a month ago but I honestly forgot what he said) is considered that obnoxious in Ireland, then hey, forget what I said about it above.

It just occurs to me, though, that if America felt that way about the creation of private golf courses over here can you just imagine what never would have gotten built? Just look at the list of the top 100 golf course in the USA---there'd probably only be about five of those courses that are on it now on the list. The rest never would've been built because about the remaining 95 of them are private golf courses!

But if that's just America---so be it!

[David_Tepper]

TEPaul-

Have you read Lorne Rubestein's "A Season in Dornoch"? While the Scottish Highlands are not Ireland, a suprising amount of the book is devoted to issues of "common land," land use and public access to the land in the Highlands. Events that happened 100-200-300 years ago still resonate today in that part of the world.

To mix metaphors even further, remember that Siena still resents the fact that they lost a battle to Florence 500 years ago!

DT

 

[Jack_Marr]

Jack, please do not get me wrong. I love the remotness and the beauty of the west coast. However, things I find  pleasure in and projects which are economically sound are not always the same.

Tiger, I would agree with you.

Re private courses - this is not something that enrages me, but I do think it would be a real pity - I am being an idealist. I am sure the intentions of everyone involved are honorable. It's not a sin for the developers to want to build a private course, but I think it's just not really right, especially for linksland and especially for an area as beautiful as this.

I certainly won't be protesting against it, and if the locals are happy, it's their choice. I don't know the economics of private courses, but maybe it would be a good thing for the area.

Like Tim said, golf is a very social game over here, and we have a relatively small golfing community. I don't think there should be an "us and them" feeling in this community.

I believe this exists with courses already. Royal County Down, for example. The great Christy O'Connor had to sign his card through a hole in the wall there as he was not allowed in the clubhouse. I think they also have a different clubhouse (correct me if I'm wrong) for local members.

[ForkaB]

To me, one of the great differences between Celtic (Irish and Scottish) golf and American golf is the overall cultural attitude towards property.  Celts tend to think of property as an integral part of the collective environment over which one has temporary stewardship, whilst Americans tend to think of it as a set of discrete objects which are one's, and one's alone, to do with as one pleases.

Almost all of the great Irish and Scottish courses are "private."  However, with maybe a few occasional exceptions, they welcome (in the broadest sense) vistors in a way that puts many private American clubs to shame.

I wonder why do you think our ancestors were so obsessed with exclusivity when they created and joined the early golf clubs of America?  Do you really think that McKenzie and McDonald REALLY understood the "Spirit of St. Andrews" when they created and nurtured such islands of privilge as Augusta, Cypress Point, Chicago GC and NGLA?

[TEPaul]

Jack:

That's interesting about Royal County Down. It wasn't three month ago I had a discussion on here about the more "open" aspect of European clubs compared to American ones. I used RCD as an example of a "guest" policy over there (that was explained to me by some of the clubs members). I was told the club (RCD) basically determined to derive a certain amount of income annually from fees from outside play and after that amount was arrived at annually that was it.

Paul Turner and Rich Goodale told me I didn't know what I was talking about and those members must have been wrong. Both said the democratic spirit of fairly open access pervaded the culture of almost all the clubs over there. That story about Christy O'Connor seems to deny that. I do understand that you might be talking about access to the clubhouse and they might just be talking about access to the golf course itself and no more.

Therein may lie one real difference between many American private clubs and European private clubs. It seems in Europe they may allow more access to outsiders to their golf courses but the same access is not extended to their clubhouses.

Generally in America at private clubs outsiders ("guests") play those course on the sponsorship of members and they certainly are allowed in the clubhouses too. I've basically never heard of it otherwise over here. However, over there even "guests' accompanied by a member may not enter some clubhouses or areas of them. The Christy O'Connor story you mentioned seems to confirm that.

Interesting distinctions there. I guess "elitism" comes in various forms, and perhaps even in various parts of golf course property. Over here it obviously isn't as easy to play private courses as over there but over here if you do play a private course they do seem to treat you no different from a member while you're there. Apparently not so over there vis-a-vis the Christy O'Connor story. To me that kind of treatment is akin to some sort of unnecessary humiliation, ie you can walk around my property but don't try to knock on my door and come in my house! Over here it's more in the vein of---If we're letting you walk around on our property by all means come in and make yourself at home afterwards!

The only reason I mention any of this is it really does annoy me sometime how some Europeans imply that many Americans the way they run their private clubs are some kind of unnecessary snobs or elitists. Things are done a bit differently over here but I don't really see that spirit of elitism that some Europeans purport to American private clubs. I think Americans generally are pretty friendly peoples. It's just that the policies over here are different for a reason. Most golf courses over here are only 18 holes (like over there) and the members of those clubs really do want access to their own golf course rather than having to compete daily with an open door policy to play their course. Amercan private club members don't seem to mind paying the freight for that right and ease of daily access to play. Perhaps not so over there as memberships over there probably don't cost anything like they do over here and the way that works is the memberships over there give up to some extent the easy access to play we have over here amongst private club members.

So it all seems to boil down to basic economics. By the way, you say you don't really understand the economics of private clubs and courses. It's pretty simple really, over here anyway. The entire cost of a golf club over here is pretty much borne by those who belong to the club (the members), at least to the tune of 85% in a general sense. Over here if any club derives more that 15% of their annual income (gross) from ANY outside income (including non-golfing parties, weddings etc) they're in danger of losing their status as a private club which is a whole different deal tax-wise and other-wise.

[Jack_Marr]

Tom

The O'Connor story was from the days when he used to compete there. They no longer have this policy, I'm sure. There are still issues with toasting the Queen of England when dining there, though.

RCD is not like any other club I know, though, in this regard.

American people are amongst the most hospitable in the world, I believe, and I can't imagine them having such a policy.

[Brian Phillips]

Jack,

Would you mind explaining to TEPaul how long ago that happened....early seventies...or was it in the sixties? Half a century ago...?  Lets keep discussion within the correct time period..

Royal County Down is open to all visitors that book in advance and they have use of the same clubhouse using the Centenary Room between 9am and 9pm.  In what context do you imply about toasting the Queen Jack? Official dinners or on an everday basis?  Is there anything wrong with the club toasting the Queen, seeing as it is a British club?

Brian

[Jack_Marr]

I did explain that this is no longer the policy, Brian. I was just giving an example of exclusivity in golf on this island.

And toasting the Queen of England. My point is that a very large minority of the people in Northern Ireland are catholic nationalists. Many of these would not toast a queen who reigned while they were being discriminated against in their country. I don't know the context of the dinner. I presume it was some kind of official capacity.

My intention is not to have a go at RCD in particular.

I don't want to go into politics when it comes to Northern Ireland. I have my own views on the matter, while respecting the Brithishness of anyone up there who wants to be British.

[ForkaB]

I have been at many dinners in GB where one was asked to join in a "Loyal Toast" (i.e. to and for the Queen).  As an unreconstructed American, I have always politely stood up and then abstained.  To join in would to me be as incongruous as a Brit mouthing the "Pledge of Allegiance."

[TEPaul]

I don't know about the Queen or toasting or Catholicism vs Protestanism on that island or what it all implies in clubs or anywhere else.

What I do know about, though, is some of the club or clubhouse policies that were explained to me in all seriousness by members of RCD, Portrush and also Muirfield. The course access policies were all explained because I asked. The clubhouse polices were also about which I didn't ask. The clubhouse policies were that clubhouses or certain parts of them are restricted to members or only guests if the member personally ushers hm in there. Otherwise I wonder why some member of Portrush asked me what I was doing when I happened to wander into the diningroom well behind our party (which included the member) The golf course policy for outside play was pretty clearly explained too and the reasons why.

I don't care who it is who lives over there and thinks they know better than those members I talked to what those polices are. Suggesting to me that those members don't know what those poicies are of their own clubs or the reasons for them is way past ludicrous.

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