[Jason Mandel]

Today was the Philadelphia Open, a 36 hole stroke play event hosted by the Golf Association of Philadelphia.  The event, which is mainly for the professionals in the area, (45 pros,15am's) was won by an amateur, Chris Lange for the 1st time since 1997.

The tournament was played on a GCA favorite, Philly Country Club, one of Wiliam Flynn's finest in the area.  Something to note is that not 1 player managed to break par either for a total score or for an individual round.  

From what I heard, and from the scores that I saw,  the course was playing very long and  very tough.

Jason Mandel

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Jason,

Funny story about Chris Lange and Philly CC...

When I was coaching the Haverford School golf team in 1999 we arranged to play St. Joes Prep at the Centennial 9 of Philly CC.  As usual, the coaches played against each other after the kids teed off and I was introduced to the other coach for the first time - Chris Lange.

He never gave me any indication of his background in the sport and we played the C9 in 20-30 mph winds.  Chris proceeded to go out and birdie 4 of the first 6 holes at which point I knew something was up.  He was rolling in putts from everywhere.  He finally explained his background in the sport (qualified for multiple US Am's, 2-time Philly Am champion, member at PV, etc.) at which point I didn't feel so bad about getting waxed by him.  

I got to know him over the next few years in our matches - he is intense on the course but a really nice guy.

This brings it full circle - at least I know now that I am in pretty good company when it comes to losing to Chris at Philly CC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

What, in your opinion made the course play hard ?

How did conditions vary from membership play ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I don't think the course was much different from everyday membership play regarding greenspeed. The pins placements were pretty difficult, though, apparently right on through. Gap set the pins, I think, and I don't know that they used any 6-6-6 method of difficulty except using front, back, middle. I didn't really analyze all the pins but most were just in spots that the players had to get pretty close to for a chance at birdie. In a sense it seemed to me the greens were a bit in the "greens within a green" mode as from the wrong spots it appeared hard for some to two putt. I know that course pretty well and it seems it was set-up pin placement-wise just using all the most sophisticated nuances almost every green has. The greens at PCC are really something---they're very nuancy to figure out how to putt. The course has always had that unique reputation of greens with sort of mysterious breaks and rolls. One reason just may be that almost all the PCC greens are William Flynn shapes and surrounds but with Perry Maxwell interior slopes and contours!!

Many players were also saying the greens had enough grain in them to throw them off just enough. I noticed almost everyone seemed to be coming up short on some or getting others way past. This is pretty strange because PCC has new A-1 greens that're only about three years old but they do have grain which is sort of odd up here at those speeds.

It also looked to me as if the firmness of the greens was such that the players couldn't figure out whether their aerial shots would ckeck or not. The blue grass rough surrounding the greens also creates inconsistent recovering.

The bluegrass didn't appear all that long but it was thick from all the rain we've had making approaches out of the rough really hard to control sometimes.

And the course was absolutely tipped out and playing really long with a couple of par 4s over 485. The 17th with its new tee on the right played real hard too for driving.

Technically Lange was one over par for 36 but GAP's tournament printed cards called the 6th hole a par 4 yesterday so the course was a par 70 yesterday instead of its normal 71.

Philadelphia C.C. just can be a hard course, I guess. It's shown itself to be that from time to time. It played really hard I think in the 1939 US Open that Nelson won by sinking that famous one iron on #17. (By the way, Michael McDermott hit his approach shot to the 17th green from right next to the Nelson plaque in the fairway, only yesterday McDermott hit a 6 iron in to Nelson's 1 iron!

It's hard to say what it was exactly as not many said there was anything unfair exactly, just a course that was set-up and playing really hard throughout---and all in all it showed.

There were some pretty well-known competitors around here who got up into the 80s without too much problem.

Another little tib-bit I didn't realize until I got there is a local women pro entered the Open but she had to play from the tips (same tees) which she was a bit upset about. She shot 92-87.

Lange won with 70-71.

[TEPaul]

I said in an earlier thread I deleted that I was going to post a thread about how the amateurs in that tournament reacted to the way the course was set up and playing compared to many of the professional contingent in the tournament (45 pros and 15 amateurs).

A number of those pros were smoking, some WDing and others complaining to GAP or saying they wanted to write a letter but the course and the set-up didn't seem to bother the amateur contingent much.

I think the reason was is the amateur contingent are used to playing courses like that and set-up that way. I think they play tournaments around here that are sometimes set-up harder than what they give the tour pros on the PGA Tour.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It could be that the amateurs are in it for a lark, and the Pros are in it to make a living, and that's a mighty big distinction, when money is on the line.

I found the McDermott - Byron Nelson story very telling.

On one hand, a man reputed to be one of the greatest ball strikers of all time, one of the greatest PGA Tour Pros of all time, hit a one iron in his prime, and now, a part time golfer hits a six iron from the same spot.

I know that the "flat earth" society has finally disbanded, but those that think there has been little improvement in distance over the years need to reread your post.

[TEPaul]

"It could be that the amateurs are in it for a lark, and the Pros are in it to make a living, and that's a mighty big distinction, when money is on the line."

Pat:

Maybe that is why pros complain more over something like yesterday. I can certainly tell you though that an amateur such as Lange showed that he understands how to handle himself on a tough course better than any other pro in that field. And I can also tell you with real assurance that part of what bothers many of those pros in a tournament like yesterday is the fact that they just got beat by an amateur--even a couple of them. They don't like that thought.

The guy who finished second was a pro. I'd been telling him where he stood yesterday from time to time against Lange and when he came off the 36th green knowing he'd finish second (Lange was in the last group and about four groups behind him) he said he'd played with Lange a couple of weeks ago and he wasn't any amateur--that he hit the ball like a pro.

I felt like saying--"Well Dave, what exactly does that mean--Chris Lange has been a dedicated amateur golfer for 50 years?"

[JSlonis]

I can assure you that the Amateur competitors, myself included, aren't playing in the GAP Open for a "lark", we play because we want to win...$$$ or no $$$.  I did here some griping from the professional ranks, but it was certainly not called for.  The course was tipped out and the pins were in difficult, but not unfair positions.  The golf course is in perfect condition, the greens were quick but not as fast as I've seen them before.  

I wasn't surprised at all that that one of the Amateur's won yesterday.  Chris Lange is a helluva competitor, and has been playing really well as of late.  Philly CC is a course that we play more frequently than many of the local PGA pro's, and it is a course that you really need to be familiar with to score well.  From being a local Assistant Pro years ago, I don't think I'd be out of line in saying that the courses and more importantly the setups that we play as amateur's in this area, are more difficult than the setups the pro's are used to playing each Monday in their PGA Section events.  

[Jason Mandel]

I wasn't at the Open this year or last year but I know last years was at Huntingdon Valley.  There is no way that you can tell me that Philly Country played harder than HVCC?  

Also, how big a difference is there really between most of the local pro's in the area and some of the better GAP players, I, for one don't really think there is too much of a difference at all.  There are a few pros in the area that really play golf a lot, but as most of the pros will tell you their real job is on the lesson tee and in the pro shop, while a lot of these amateurs pretty much have jobs that allow them to let golf take a priority in the summer.

Tom,
What were the players complaining about specifically?  The one complaint I heard was about number 5 being turned into a par 4, but that really just messes with the mind more than anything else.  I heard the greens were not overly fast and while the rough was tough, it wasn't us open rough.  

I agree that while the gap may set up their championships tougher than the local sections, these guys are out there playing for a decent purse that the gap put up.  instead of writing letters, don't play next year.  

jason mandel

[Peter_Herreid]

Just thought I would throw a few pix of Philadelphia CC up here, for those who have an interest in this thread, since there are not many threads about the course, with specific shots of a couple of the holes mentioned above...

I thoroughly enjoyed my visit there, although as you can see (and perhaps feel) from the pictures, the heat and humidity were in full force that afternoon...

The view from the 3rd tee


I loved the various angles employed throughout this hole..

The 6th hole from the general area of a decent tee shot

There is no good way to do justice to the steepness of the hill on which the green sits, or to convey the necessity to stay below the hole...

Panaroma from the 16th fairway, with the 11th green behind the 16th

As has been discussed on GCA before, this is the site of  significant tree removal...

17th tee box, from adjacent to, and above, the back right tee


17th hole, looking backward from the green


Gosh, what a hole!  Too much for me this day, and must be one of the nation's all-world 4-par's, in terms of toughness...

As Philadelphia CC was my first exposure to Wm. Flynn, it was terrific learning experience, especially in terms of angles of attack, bunkering schemes, etc...

As I hit "post preview" and view the pictures, I can feel the humidity rushing back to me--in true GCA fashion we walked that day, but even the most strident walking advocates could have been excused in those conditions!

Peter

[Dan Herrmann]

Flynn strikes again!

Great pics, thanks for sharing.

This got me wondering - are there any other metro areas with so many good courses by a single architect?

[Shaun Carney]

Great pics Peter. Thanks for posting them. I'll be playing the Fazio 9 at Philly CC in a few days with a good friend and I'm going to get the chance to walk around the Flynn 18 and I can't wait.

Side note...anyone like or have any thoughts on what to look for on the Centennial 9 as I have never played it? ie. things one might miss the first time around, good holes/bad holes.

I've never really heard alot about C9 but I'm sure it will be fun.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Jason,

Funny story about Chris Lange and Philly CC...

When I was coaching the Haverford School golf team in 1999 we arranged to play St. Joes Prep at the Centennial 9 of Philly CC.  As usual, the coaches played against each other after the kids teed off and I was introduced to the other coach for the first time - Chris Lange.

He never gave me any indication of his background in the sport and we played the C9 in 20-30 mph winds.  Chris proceeded to go out and birdie 4 of the first 6 holes at which point I knew something was up.  He was rolling in putts from everywhere.  He finally explained his background in the sport (qualified for multiple US Am's, 2-time Philly Am champion, member at PV, etc.) at which point I didn't feel so bad about getting waxed by him.  

I got to know him over the next few years in our matches - he is intense on the course but a really nice guy.

This brings it full circle - at least I know now that I am in pretty good company when it comes to losing to Chris at Philly CC.

Geoffrey,

As a former St Joe's Prep golfer, my guess is that your Haverford squad waxed The Prep. Chris grew up more with my older sisters, but he has pretty much been one of the top 2-3 golfers in Philly for years.

Chris Lange,

If you read this, I am still waiting for The Prep golf team fundraider at your other course.

Peter,

More pictures please !! I know you have them.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for the photos.

Has PCC recently taken out trees, or did they do a better job controlling growth? It doesn't look as overtreed as many courses from the same era.

[Jason Mandel]

George,

They recently completed a MAJOR deforresation.  A couple of the holes you wouldn't even recognize if you saw the before and after, namely #11.

jason

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Mike,

St. Joes Prep has actually fielded a pretty good team over the past 5 years and they play a brutal non-conference schedule.

If memory serves me right I believe we won the match but it was pretty close... we had one of our guys shoot a 37 and he hit only one green in regulation - he was something like 7 for 8 getting up and down.

[TEPaul]

PCC sure did take out trees in the last two years. They basically concentrated on a particular area (#11, 12, 16, 6) but there seems to have been lots of thinning out elsewhere. The job they did is a great example of what happens if you take out what was an endless overgrowth over the years---you show how beautiful looking through parts of the course can be and you show off the really big beautiful trees that no one saw for years since they were covered up and blocked from view by so many other useless trees.

Glad to see Jamie Slonis weight in with his impression of exactly how the course played in the Philly Open and how other courses play for the class A GAP amateur tournaments compared to what the local pros play. Jamie plays in most of these things. All I do is officiate these days which means riding around in a cart with a radio and a rules book basically watching!

As far as what some of the pros were specifically complaining about yesterday---nothing that I could tell particularly probably because there really wasn't anything in particular to complain about. They just don't like shooting high scores I guess and feel that something has to be said.

But the more thoughtful ones I know like Terry Hertzog (couple of time recent Pennsylvania Open Champ) simply said the course played really hard--but there was nothing wrong with that.

[Peter_Herreid]

As I have had a few requests for some additional shots, here are a few more pictures from Philadelphia CC, with a bit of an emphasis on the "vista" shots across the bowl area in the middle of the course...

From the tee of the sporty 5th


...and, from the 12th fairway, back across the 5th green, over the 6th tee and to the 18th and the clubhouse


The awkward (for a fade/hard pull hitter such as myself) tee shot off the 10th

While I have never been there, I envisioned this tee shot as being very "Shinnecock"-esque...

From the 18th fairway, the view across the 10th green and beyond


A more traditional view from the 11th tee, which has been nicely presented before here on GCA...


and again from the 12th fairway, the view back across the 11th to the opposite hillside


Another hole I personally found very challenging because of the "cape" like aspects of the tee shot, the 14th was, according to our host, the old #1


Finally, a bit closer view of the 18th green and clubhouse, taken from the 10th fairway


Peter

[Brian_Gracely]

Is there a reason there appear to be so many little trees throughout the course?  Did they plant a new one for X old ones taken down?

[TEPaul]

Peter:

That second to last shot of the 14th was the old 1st. If you looked to your right you can see some rather elaborate old buildings which are now maintenance. That was the old clubhouse. And the 13th hole was the old 9th with the present 3rd behind it being the old 18th where Snead could not get out of that fairway bunker in 1939 and just gave away the only US Open he really should have won!

[TEPaul]

Brian:

They did plant a few little ones in certain areas, I think. I wish they hadn't but the net effect of what they did is dramatic. Some of those shorter ones may just be dogwoods though.

[JSlonis]

Peter,

Great photos.

The Par 3, 11th hole at Philly CC gets my vote as the "Best transformation of a golf hole".  The tree removal and subsequent remodeling of the bunkers on this hole is fantastic.  It was always a pretty good hole but the green was never in great shape due to the lack of sunlight.  This green used to be entirely closed in with large trees from the bottom right all the way around the green to the left.  I was really blown away when I saw the new look for the first time a couple of years ago.  

Philadelphia CC and now Gulph Mills are the "Poster Courses" of successful restoration/renovation and tree removal in the Philadelphia area.  The before and after pictures would really surprise alot of guys.

[TEPaul]

Jamie:

The use of words and terms for what one does to a golf course can get pretty funny. I consider what we did to GMGC recently to be in the vast majority a restoration, but in the beginning of our master planning it seemed some in the club didn't like the sound of that word or term so we changed it to the GMGC "improvement plan" or just "Master Plan" although nothing was changed on the plan because of the change to what we called it.

It probably had to do with one guy on the golf committee back then (until he got thrown off it) who was being a complete pain in the ass and resisting restoring the course. A couple of times he tried to embarrass me by standing up and saying this was 2000 and who the hell cared about Donald Ross who hadn't been here in 75 years? After he did that in a couple of meetings I told him to go down to PVGC (where he belongs) and ask who the hell cares about George Crump who hasn't been there in about 85 years. Thankfully that quieted him down!  

[JSlonis]

Tom,

Sorry...I did mean to use the term restoration.  I'll modify my original post accordingly.  Those two terms do get mislabled and misused quite often.

I can appreciate your point, because now at Tavistock we have a "Selective Tree Management Program."  This program was previously known as..."Were're going to cut down all the unneccessary, infringing, ugly-ass White Pines, Spruces, etc that we can possibly find...so that our Superintendent can grow grass and not be a tree trimmer, and so that we can play golf on this newly grown healthy grass instead of chipping out from the tree roots."  

[TEPaul]

Jamie, any time you want you can count on me to help you reorganize Meyer Lansky's "Murder Incorporated" into the golf architecture version of "White Pine Murder Incorporated". I hate those things.

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