[DMoriarty]

In his thought provoking book, Tom Fazio predicts that the 1990's will be viewed as a second golden age of architecture, and that courses from the 1990s will be the bulk of the premier courses:

"I'll suggest that when the experts later this century look back and assess the past hundred years of golf architecture, their rankings will indicate that the majority of the premier courses of the twentieth century were designed in the 1990s." (pg. 90.)

While it may be premature, I thought it might be interesting to try to predict the courses which will eventually be considered "premiere."  Below is the top 40 from the 2003 World list.  Which 20 courses from the 1990's will break into this premiere list, and which 20 courses will they replace?


   1      1 Pine Valley - Clementon, New Jersey (Crump/Colt, 1918)
   2       2 Cypress Point - Pebble Beach, California (MacKenzie, 1928; Egan)
   3         Muirfield - Gullane, Scotland (T. Morris, 1891; Colt, Simpson)
   4          Shinnecock Hills - Southampton, New York (Flynn, 1931)
   5          Augusta National - Augusta, Georgia (MacKenzie/Bobby Jones, 1932)
  6            St Andrews (Old Course) - St Andrews, Scotland (16th Century)
   7           Pebble Beach - Pebble Beach, California (Neville/Grant, 1919; Egan)
   8          Royal Melbourne (Composite) - Melbourne, Australia (MacKenzie/Russell, 1926)
   9 Pinehurst (No. 2) - Pinehurst, North Carolina (D. Ross, 1935)
  10          8     Royal County Down - Newcastle, Northern Ireland ( T. Morris, 1889, Dunn, Vardon)
  11         12    Sand Hills - Mullen, Nebraska (Coore/Crenshaw, 1995)
  12         14    Royal Portrush (Dunluce) - Portrush, Northern Ireland (Colt, 1929)
  13         11    Ballybunion (Old) - Ballybunion, Ireland (Murphy, 1906; Simpson, Gourlay)
  14         13    Merion (East) - Ardmore, Pennsylvania (H. Wilson, 1912)
  15         16    Oakmont - Oakmont, Pennsylvania (Fownes, 1903)
  16         15    Royal Dornoch - Dornoch, Scotland (T. Morris, 1886; Sutherland, Duncan)
  17         18    Turnberry (Ailsa) - Turnberry, Scotland ( P.M. Ross, 1906)
  18         19    Winged Foot (West) - Mamaroneck, New York (Tillinghast, 1923)
  19         26    Pacific Dunes - Bandon, Oregon (Doak, 2001)
  20         23    National Golf Links of America - Southampton, New York (MacDonald, 1911)
  21         28    Kingston Heath - Cheltenham, Australia (Soutar, 1925; MacKenzie)
  22         17    Seminole - North Palm Beach, Florida (D. Ross, 1929; D Wilson)
  23         21    Prairie Dunes - Hutchinson, Kansas (Maxwell, 1935)
  24         24    Crystal Downs - Frankfort, Michigan (MacKenzie/Maxwell, 1929)
  25         25    Oakland Hills (South) - Bloomfield Hills, Michigan (D. Ross, 1917; R. T. Jones Sr)
  26         22    Carnoustie (Championship) - Carnoustie, Scot. - (Robertson, 1842; T. Morris, Park, Braid)
  27         20    San Francisco - San Francisco, California (Tillinghast, 1915)
  28         29    Royal Birkdale - Southport, England (Lowe, 1889; Hawtree/Taylor)
  29         30    Fishers Island - Fishers Island, New York (Raynor, 1917)
  30         45    Bethpage (Black) - Farmingdale, New York (Tillinghast, 1936; Rees Jones)
  31         31    Chicago - Wheaton, Illinois (MacDonald, 1895; Raynor)
  32         27    Royal St. George's - Sandwich, England (Purves, 1887; MacKenzie, Pennink, Steel)
  33         33    The Country Club (Championship) - Brookline, Mass. (Campbell, 1895; Flynn, Rees Jones)
  34         35    Casa de Campo (Teeth of Dog) - La Romana, Dominican Republic (P. Dye, 1971)
  35         41    Hirono - Kobe, Japan (Alison, 1932)
  36         42    Riviera - Pacific Palisades, California (Thomas/Bell 1926; T. Fazio, Crenshaw, Coore)
  37         39    Muirfield Village - Dublin, Ohio (Nicklaus/Muirhead, 1974)
  38         40    Royal Troon (Old) - Troon, Scotland (Fernie, 1878; Braid)
  39         32    Olympic (Lake) - San Francisco, California (Reid, 1917; Whiting, R.T. Jones Sr)
  40         34    Portmarnock - Portmarnock, Ireland (G. Ross/Pickeman, 1894; Hawtree)

[Brian_Gracely]

David,

Can't you just save Ran some bandwidth and put "I hate Tom Fazio's work" in your signature line and be done with all of these posts?  Either that or just have the argument directly with Matt Ward?

You live in LA....can't you spot self-promotion from a mile away?  

[DMoriarty]

David,

Can't you just save Ran some bandwidth and put "I hate Tom Fazio's work" in your signature line and be done with all of these posts?

I cannot . . .  I dont hate Tom Fazio's work . . . I dont know his work well enough to love it or hate it. This is precisely why I start these threads . . . to learn a bit about his work from those who love it and think of him among the great architects.  

You and others dismiss Mr. Fazio's writing as nothing but "self-promotion."   Isnt this extremely insulting to Mr. Fazio?   Why don't you guys respect him enough to take him at his word.  Sure he promotes himself in his book, but this is no reason to doubt his veracity and sincerity.  Why do you think he is being anything but sincere?   Why not take him at his word?

But this is all beside the point.  I asked a straightforward question aimed at starting a substantive discussion about the quality of architecture in the 1990's.   No Fazio bashing intended.

So Brian, instead of trying to turn this into yet another thread alledging Fazio bashing, why not just anwer the question?   Even Mr. Fazio knows that this is worth talking about, noting that his predictions are something for the pundits to chew on.

So why not chew on it?  

[A_Clay_Man]

DM- I'm not familiar with his book. Was it written before the C Guide?

From my perspective he may have been correct, but they would be  because of Sand Hills and Wild Horse. Pac Dunes proabbaly gets in there, too, but I've yet to read her either.

It isn't that hard to put yourself in his shoes, at that time,  knowing what he likely considered great GCA, making that statement, wasn't as self-serving as it was an informed unbiased opinion.

[JakaB]

David,

Doesn't the golden age Fazio referred to reference the courses of the United States....Use the top 40 of Golf Digest and it will be a more relative discussion......remember that by the time later this century rolls around the tradition numbers will even out.

I have not read the Fazio book...but isn't it based on where his work is taking place.....btw...I agree with him that the best architects doing the best work are alive and working today...

[DMoriarty]

JKB

I am not so sure that he meant to limit himself to US courses.  Nevertheless, use the GD list if you want . . .


1. PINE VALLEY G.C. 6,699 70 71.33  Pine Valley, N.J.-- George Crump & H.S. Colt (1918)
 
2. AUGUSTA NATIONAL G.C. 7,290 72 71.14  Augusta, Ga.-- Alister Mackenzie & Bobby Jones (1933)
 
3. CYPRESS POINT CLUB 6,524 72 69.85 Pebble Beach, Calif. -- Alister Mackenzie & Robert Hunter (1928)
 
4. OAKMONT C.C. 7,230 71 69.84  Oakmont, Pa. -- Henry Fownes (1903)
 
5. PEBBLE BEACH G. LINKS 6,737 72 69.78  Pebble Beach, Calif.-- Jack Neville & Douglas Grant (1919)
 
6. SHINNECOCK HILLS G.C. 6,813 70 69.76  Southampton, N.Y. -- William Flynn (1931)
 
7. MERION G.C. (East) 6,482 70 68.96  Ardmore, Pa. -- Hugh Wilson (1912)
   
8. OAKLAND HILLS C.C. (South) 7,105 72 66.89 Bloomfield Hills, Mich. --- D. Ross (1918)/R.T. Jones (1950)
 
 9. WINGED FOOT G.C. (West) 6,956 72 66.76 Mamaroneck, N.Y. -- A.W. Tillinghast (1923)
   
10. OAK HILL C.C. (East) 7,145 71 66.13  Rochester, N.Y. -- Donald Ross (1925)
 
 11. THE COUNTRY CLUB (Clyde/Squirrel) 6,577 71 66.11  Brookline, Mass. -- Willie Campbell (1895)/Alex Campell (1902)  
 
12. PINEHURST RESORT & C.C. (No. 2) 7,189 72 65.85 Pinehurst, N.C. -- Donald Ross (1935)

13. MEDINAH C.C. (No. 3) 7,401 72 65.26  Medinah, Ill. -- Tom Bendelow (1928)
   
14. SEMINOLE G.C. 6,836 72 64.85  North Palm Beach, Fla. -- Donald Ross (1929)
 
15. SOUTHERN HILLS C.C. 7,085 71 64.82  Tulsa, Okla. -- Perry Maxwell (1936)    

16. THE OLYMPIC CLUB (Lake) 6,842 71 64.70 San Francisco -- Sam Whiting (1928)    

17. INVERNESS CLUB 7,255 71 64.38 Toledo, Ohio -- Donald Ross (1919)    

18. MUIRFIELD VILLAGE G.C. 7,265 72 64.31  Dublin, Ohio -- Jack Nicklaus & Desmond Muirhead (1974)
 
19. NATIONAL GOLF LINKS 6,876 73 64.09 Southampton, N.Y.-- C.B. Macdonald (1911)    

20. QUAKER RIDGE G.C. 6,835 70 63.59  Scarsdale, N.Y.-- A.W. Tillinghast (1926)
 
21. CHERRY HILLS C.C. 7,160 72 63.55  Englewood, Colo. -- William S. Flynn (1923)
 
22. BALTUSROL G.C. (Lower) 7,337 72 63.40 Springfield, N.J. -- A.W. Tillinghast (1922)
 
23. CRYSTAL DOWNS C.C. 6,518 70 63.36  Frankfort, Mich. -- Alister Mackenzie & Perry Maxwell (1931)  
 
24. OLYMPIA FIELDS C.C. (North) 7,177 70 63.17 Olympia Fields, Ill. -- Willie Park Jr. (1922)
 
25. PRAIRIE DUNES C.C. 6,598 70 62.95
 Hutchinson, Kan. -- Perry Maxwell (1937)/Press Maxwell 57)

26. RIVIERA C.C. 7,013 71 62.70 Pacific Palisades, Calif. -- George C. Thomas Jr. & W.P. Bell (1926)

 27. LOS ANGELES C.C. (North) 6,909 71 62.64 Los Angeles -- George C. Thomas Jr. (1921)
 
28. SAN FRANCISCO G.C. 6,754 71 62.45  San Francisco -- A.W. Tillinghast (1918)
 
29. GARDEN CITY G.C. 6,911 73 62.42  Garden City, N.Y. -- Devereux Emmet (1899)
 
 30. BETHPAGE G. CSE. (Black) 7,297 71 62.24 Farmingdale, N.Y. -- Joseph H. Burbeck & A.W. Tillinghast (1936)
 
31. SCIOTO C.C. 6,955 71 62.23 Columbus, Ohio -- Donald Ross (1916)

32. WINGED FOOT G.C. (East) 6,664 72 61.94 Mamaroneck, N.Y. -- A.W. Tillinghast (1923)
 
 33. CHICAGO G.C. 6,574 70 61.90 Wheaton, Ill. -- C.B. Macdonald (1894)/Seth Raynor (1923)
 
34. FISHERS ISLAND CLUB 6,566 72 61.77  Fishers Island, N.Y. -- Seth Raynor & Charles Banks (1926)
 
35. COLONIAL C.C. 7,054 70 61.48  Fort Worth -- John Bredemus (1936)  
 
36. INTERLACHEN C.C. 6,829 73 61.19 Edina, Minn. -- Willie Watson (1911)
 
37. WADE HAMPTON G.C. 7,154 72 61.14 Cashiers, N.C. -- Tom Fazio (1987)

38. SAND HILLS G.C. 7,089 71 60.93  Mullen, Neb. -- Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw (1994)

 39. THE HOMESTEAD (Cascades) 6,679 70 60.80 Hot Springs, Va. -- William Flynn (1923)
 
40. MILWAUKEE C.C. 6,928 72 60.77 River Hills, Wis. -- H.S. Colt & C.H. Alison (1929)

Which will be replaced, and by which 1990's courses?

[John_Conley]

Nineties courses of note:

Sand Hills
Bandon Dunes
Whistling Straits
Pete Dye
Shadow Creek
Pine Barrens @ World Woods
Cuscowilla
Double Eagle
Victoria National
Wolf Run
Forest Creek
Princeville
Old Memorial
Ocean Course
Kapalua Plantation

I'm not familiar with the book, but expanding the 90s just a few years picks up a lot of stuff done 2000-2004.

I have no doubts that as many of these courses will be considered premier American courses 70 years from now.  Time does weird things and many of those noted are probably much more appreciated today than they were in their era.  (Crystal Downs being the obvious choice; didn't get much ink until Doak had it on his "Hidden Gems").

Some that likely have been propped up by the stature afforded them for factors like exclusivity, reputation (like Ben Hogan said he liked it), or tournament fame are the following:

Pebble (which half are they ranking #5?  Ocean holes or inland?)
Medinah
Seminole
Pinehurst
Baltusrol
Olympia Fields
Scioto
Colonial
Interlachen

And finally, Dave, remember it is me that advocates Golf Digest moving to the Top 150.  Having 15 top 10 courses and so on would naturally not dilute the meaning of "top 10" if there were now 50% more qualified courses, and I believe there are.  (Take the list from 15 years ago and add 50 courses to it from the last decade and a half and you'll see my point.  Most importantly, propping up old stalwarts with tradition wouldn't be necessary.)

Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills are obviously two courses that would be added to the Top 10, and from what I'm hearing Friar's Head would be a third.  I think you get my point.

[John_Conley]

Forgot to mention...

The effects of 70 years will be pronounced.  Nicklaus has a fondness for Pebble Beach, and its significance is more prounonced because Watson chipped in on 71 to beat him in '82.  Now consider that Tiger may be engaged in an epic duel a decade from now on a course like Whistling Straits and it could have the same significance.  Or how about the next Jones/Hogan/Nicklaus/Woods winning two of his Majors on a course that hasn't even been built yet?  Perception of places like Interlachen (where Jones won the 1930 Open) and Homestead (where Sam Snead hung out) will certainly be different in 50 years as those two icons become more a thing of the ancient past.

[DMoriarty]

John,

Thanks for responding.   One of the reasons I didn't start with the GD list is the tradition fudge factor.   I'd rather just focus on architectural merit, but realize that is tough to do.  Also, it is impossible to know what is coming later, which is why I stuck with a limited time period.

As for thos courses on your "propped up" list, where do you think they should rate?  More specifically, which ones drop out of the top 40 to be replaced by the newer courses?   If they dont have the architectural merit, let's drop them and replace them with better courses.

Sand Hills is already on the lists, although just barely in the GD top 40.  Where would you place the others from the 90's? and which would they replace?

[JakaB]

David....I have only played two of the Golf Digest top 40...so my comments on anything specific would be arbitrary if not ignorant.....You might try to eliminate the tradition points and see how the courses fall...


I do believe that in 2070 you will see as many courses from the last 20 years in the top 100 as you will see from the so called "Golden Age"...that is if you coasters are even still inhabiting your precious overpriced, overexposed locals.  

[ForkaB]

Interesting question.

If technology continues at it's current pace--even if only up to currently surmizeable physical limits--John (K) is probably right.  By 2050, 1/2 of the current GD list will be relegated to annual appearances on Brad Klein's "Sexiest Senior Citizens" list.  But.......

.......if the golf ball is dialled back to the good ole' Titleist Professional, and clubhead size is limited to that of some of the medium sized fruits and vegetables (i.e. pears rather than eggplants), then Golf Week will have to add a category "Top 100 Courses That Coulda Been a Contender if Golfers Could Still Carry Their Drives 350 Yards" to deal with the "Super-Sized" offerrings of the past two decades.

[John_Conley]

Sand Hills is already on the lists, although just barely in the GD top 40.  Where would you place the others from the 90's? and which would they replace?

Dave:

Sand Hills is actually about 6th or 7th, but you have to take out "Tradition" to glean that.  As far as me placing others from the 90s and removing some... that exercise is pointless or futile.  Even if I'd played every course it would still be just one man's opinion.  A forum like GCA.com works better when we use generalities about what we like or specifics about certain subjective qualities.  

I was simply trying to answer your question and pointed out - correctly I think - that perceptions of the best courses will change greatly over the next 75 years.

I've given you some ideas of which 20 would move into the elite and which might be the first to fall.  (Fall's actually the wrong term.  The 3rd best looking girl in school before the junior highs merge could still be just as good looking and drop to 8th; people need to remember the context.)

One final point is that often you can say you know that something will happen, you just don't know WHICH will do it.  For example, it is a reasonable guess that 4 or 5 ninth graders will be selected in the First Round of the NBA Draft in three years.  Figuring WHICH 5 kids is another matter.

GD has tried to give courses some time to "season" by making a waiting period - presumed to be to avoid embarrassment when a Top 10 like Muirfield Village falls precipitously or a Top 40 like Haig Point drops from the list altogether.  I think it is fair to say that it is too soon to say for sure how Estancia will be viewed in 30 years.

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