[T_MacWood]

There have been a number of major projects that were planned but for whatever reason never built. Willie Park-Jr. designed a course along the Lincolnshire coast, St. Peters (Mablethorpe). Evidently it was an exceptional property among the dunes and Willie thought it had the potential to be one of the great links.

MacKenzie described a specatular course that Colt designed on the coast, that was either not carried out properly or not built at all. MacKenzie's design for the Shore course at Monterey Peninsula is another example. I recall hearing about a Flynn design or two.

I'm certain that most architects had similar projects that died....some that could have turned out to be very special.

[Greg Holland]

Didn't Tom Doak work with Ashworth on a project in Scotland, maybe it was Fidra since that is Ashworth's new apparel line?  I read somewhere that the project got hung up in permiting, and never happened.  

[TEPaul]

The greatest course never built is GMGC at Ardrossan Farms by Coore & Crenshaw (and collaborators) in Villanova, PA. It's still possible but not likely. One hole would unquestionably be instantly one of the most unusual and greats of the world. It's a natural landform entirely naturally complete with green site. Basically nothing needs to be done to it at all architecturally except place tees and grow the grass on the green site and the fairway which would probably be a fairway area of about 5 or more acres. The natural green site sits on a really interesting and precipitous ridge perhaps 50 feet below the tee elevation and is about 70-80 yards long in the form of a large wedge about 40 yards wide at the front and shrinking down at the rear to about 15yds. There would be no need at all for bunkering or any other man-made architectural feature on this hole as it is all just "gravity" golf---the best kind!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Greg,

Good call. I know that Doak course in Scotland was routed and ready to be built adjacent to Muirfield, if I recall correctly. Maybe Tom D. will chime in.

Tom Paul,

Was the Ardrossan Farms course completely routed? I recall your club was considering a move, and years ago, your discussions about the potential for that farm. But I didn't realize Coore (and collaborators) had put work into a fully devised routing plan.

As for "The Greatest Courses Never Built", I'm nominate Rod Whitman's Angus Glen near Toronto. As many of you known, Doug Carrick completed Angus Glen, and the course has since hosted the Canadian Open. Rod was the first architect on the project though. And, for the sake of interest, I'd love to see what he would have come up with had he finished the job to completion.  

[TEPaul]

JeffM:

GMGC at Ardrossan Farms was fully routed and designed on paper. Of course it wasn't approved by townships and God knows what else but it was fully routed and designed on paper considering the land and all the features over there.

[Larry_Rodgers]

C & C were very close at Dos Pueblos, North of Santa Barbara. Routing complete, Oil storage tanks removed then the dreaded frog was "planted" and all hope of a golf course on the Pacific Ocean in Southern California gone

[GeoffreyC]

Raynor at Cypress Pont

The second Raynor course at Fisher's Island though to be more bold then the one built.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Why not seek township approval ?

That way, if the project ever heats up, the approvals are behind you.

The Sambols, at Metedeconk, made a similar move on their third nine, getting approvals well in advance of their intent to build the third nine.

It made perfect sense, and when the time came, moving forward was a simple matter.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

A course that MacKenzie was going to build in Dana Point could be one.

A great place Dana Point, now turned into the rat-like-infested slums of yuppiedom where everyone looks as if they are the products of years and years of inbreeding.

-Range Rover specifically targets this area as one of their greatest American markets.

-Clairol also makes a fortune here with their best selling, "Blond de blond" die kits.

-It is a place where there are so many Starbucks right next to each other that there is great hope that the citizens will just anty up a very sizable yearly tax as a religious gift to the mega-coffee giant.

Dana Point is one of greatest cities I know of where the ego's are more inflated then the properties they live in.

And yes, at one time Dr. Alister MacKenzie had hopes of building a course here. In fact, there may have been something built--but more on that one later!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Isn't there a very good Italian restuarant right on the water in
Dana Point ?

Was that the intended 19th hole ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
There is in fact a Italian ristorante down there on the wharf, but I'm not sure if that was the intended area or not. I will be going and researching this soon to find out as my reference source has all of the files from the developer of Dana Point from when it was originally concieved.

All coming soon.

[Jfaspen]

One wonders what else Mackenzie would have done had he designed the "womens course" at Augusta National...

Jeff

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I've read articles about St Peters/Mablethorpe; I assumed the course was built, but just didn't last.  Do you have some info that suggests it was never built?

My guess as to the Colt course that Mack writes about, is Great Yarmouth and Caister.  I know that Colt put some radical redesign plans to the club, but they weren't used.  I'd love to have seen Colt's redesign plans for Sandwich too (bye bye to the current Maiden hole), but again these were never used.

And yes Tom Doak's Archerfield project could have been really interesting...the current course designed by Williams/Russell? is supposed to be miserable.  

[Steve_Lovett]

Two near Santa Barbara...

One - Dos Pueblos - C&C design on the bluffs at the Arco property north of town...

Two - Santa Barbara Ranch - a Nicklaus design immediately north of the Dos Pueblos site, on perhaps even more stunning property.

Both casualties of the California Coastal Commission?

[T_MacWood]

Paul
I had thought it was built also, then I ran across an article (from the 20's or 30's) that said they were trying to resurrect the project. Evidently it was to be a major resort with a large hotel and world class golf course...I'm not sure if the hotel was ever constructed.

I had wondered why there was no buzz about the golf course after a significant buzz during the planning stages....the reason was because it was never built. Park never listed it on his very comprehensive list of designs.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Raynor at Olympic

Doak at Old Head

[Jason Mandel]

Pat,

Lower Merion township is one of the toughest zoning committess one will ever face.  My father, who is a real esate attorney, represented his client in an attempt to build some houses, the project took about 10 years to finally get approval! But your right, they did finally get approval.

Tom,

Could you talk a little bit more about this property, does Gulph Mills already own the land? Where exactly in Villanova is the farm?   What is it currently being used for?  If GM built the new course would they have kept both courses or sold the original.  If the answer was they would keep both, would GM really be able to utilize both courses, from what I hear your place is empty half the time anyway!
Sorry for all the questions but I had never heard of this talk before but it is really interesting.  Certainly the Philly Country property is propably the best golf property in all of Philadelphia.

Jason

[Jason Mandel]

Tom,

Ok, I did a search on "Ardrossan" and found many of the old threads so  large amount of my questions were answered.

This really sounds like it was a fascinating project for you.   I would love to see the property some time as I now have a pretty good idea where it is.

Was the farm only "offered" to Gulph Mills at not to anyone else i.e. a private developer such as yourself to develop a private club?  

Anyway, I must have came to GCA post this whole Ardrossan stuff so thats why I'm a little curious.  I was really suprised to hear that there was a potential of Gulph Mills closing its course in favor of a new course.

Jason

[Sean_Tully]

May not be a greatest, but it would have been an undertaking and very novel for its time. In West Marin County there is a town called Olema(epicenter for the 1906 earthquake). In 1929 there was plans to build the Wauhilla Country Club over 1900 acres. The name threw me at first, it looks Hawaiian but, its Cherokee for "the land of the eagle." WP Bell was signed on to design it as the developer was De Witt Markham who helped to organize Castlewood CC another Bell design.  The article states that it would be the largest project on the west coast.  It involved a novel idea of incorporating a flying field. Markham was in the process of getting an air transportation company to bring members to and from the club from any western airport directly to the club.  The times must of been pretty good then pooooofff....only a dream and an old newspaper article to remind us of it.

[wsmorrison]

George Crump intended to build a women's course at Pine Valley according to information brought to light by Tom Paul.  The club has a great deal of undeveloped land and some of it was acquired and intended to be a course designed and used only by women!  And this was pre-1920s.  Think of the impact that would've had in women's golf.

Flynn's Miami Beach Polo Club would have been an interesting design among man-made canals.  The design drawings show a very interesting course, but the most fascinating drawing in the set was the magnificent clubhouse.  Wow!  It was a beautiful architectural plan and the pencil drawing on the routing map is a work of art.

[TEPaul]

A Crump PVGC solely woman's course certainly would've been interesting and it seems to be a little known fact today that definitely bemuses those PV members I've mentioned it to. I can't seem to lay my hands at the moment on the interview article with Crump explaining it. My recollection is it was from an interview with Crump in the old Public Ledger newspaper from 1917. I also recall it was part of the apparent reason Crump bought so much more additional land at PVGC than the initial 186 acres he originally purchased from Sumner Ireland to build his course.

He explained that when he finished the regular course he was going to launch into the course exclusively designed for women and I believe he'd already spoken to or interviewed the likes of Alexa Sterling for her input into how it should be designed for women's length and such. I wonder what he had in mind for clubhouse facilities or whatnot for women down there.

Initially app 100 lots were also planned for PV but as we know they decided to limit the maximum number to well short of that.

PVGC has an interesting evolution in concept from beginning to completion. Initially Crump and his group visualized a place for winter golf (as it's about ten degrees warmer down there than Philly). That was apparently given up early. Then the club on organization thought to let anyone subscribing for initial founding membership of $1,000 to be allowed to design a hole for that payment. That was quickly given up and Crump, who bought and owned PVGC went down there to live at first in a tent and then in his little bungaloo below and to the right of #5 tee and that's where he spent the next five years and the remainder of his life developing and creating a golf course that he visualized as a testing ground and training ground for the competitive improvement of the best players in and around Philadelphia to do better in regional and national competition.

To say that Crump's vision for a PVGC exclusively women's course as the greatest course never built would certainly be a stretch though. The concept of an exclusively "women's" course never seemed to have worked that well. Certainly Marion Hollin's "Women's National" in LI was one, but that too struggled and became attached to the Creek Club for a time.

Was Crump's idea for a women's 18 hole course the first time that idea had been visualized? Emmet built Marion Hollins's Women's National in 1923.

[Tom_Doak]

The Scottish project referred to was at Archerfield.  It didn't happen because John Ashworth got hooked up with a financial partner who hung him out to dry.  He took control of the land and then stopped returning our calls as well.  They did build 36 holes there ... it just opened ... but from the looks of it I'm glad I wasn't involved, because the new owner appears not to care much about good golf architecture.

But that wasn't really a great piece of land to begin with, just a field in the right place and the right climate.  And it would have been really cool to work with John on it.  It might have been something special, but no guarantee.

The same goes for Old Head ... I might have been able to do something cool, but no guarantee, and probably not considering the client and the contractor involved.  In fact, if I had started the job I would likely have been run out of it when they ran out of money partway through, so it's probably a good thing I didn't.

I have worked on plans for three or four courses which I thought could be really special, but wound up losing those jobs to someone else.  Olde Kinderhook.  Karsten Creek.  Erin GC in Wisconsin, which Hurdzan and Fry are supposed to do someday.  I've heard good things about the courses that were built on those, but I thought they should have been slam-dunk candidates for the top 100 courses in America, and they aren't today.

Luckily I am less likely to take "no" for an answer these days.  Barnbougle, St. Andrews Beach and Ballyneal might all have been in this "what if" category if I hadn't offered to defer a lot of my fees to help make them happen.  [I have a lot more stake in Barnbougle than Greg Ramsay does.]  Ben Crenshaw did the same thing to help Sand Hills get off the ground.  Hopefully it works out as well for me financially, but regardless, it was worth it to see some great golf courses get built.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Olde Kinderhook and Karsten Creek are slam dunks for my top 100. The work by Rees Jones and Tom Fazio respectively turned out quite well indeed IMHO.

Now Tom -- you're not expressing a slightly biased point of view here now are you?

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I don't see the bias there.

I said they should be top 100 courses in America.  The fact is they are not on any magazine's list, just your own personal list.

I haven't been back to see the finished product in either case, so I didn't make any representation as to how I thought they turned out.  I haven't gone, in part, because I'm sure I would be biased if I did.  I'm the only one who knows how my work would have differed.

Now let me ask you something -- do you think either course could have been better?

[George Pazin]

Luckily I am less likely to take "no" for an answer these days.  Barnbougle, St. Andrews Beach and Ballyneal might all have been in this "what if" category if I hadn't offered to defer a lot of my fees to help make them happen.  [I have a lot more stake in Barnbougle than Greg Ramsay does.]  Ben Crenshaw did the same thing to help Sand Hills get off the ground.  Hopefully it works out as well for me financially, but regardless, it was worth it to see some great golf courses get built.

I wonder how many architects have done this, or would be willing to do it. Pete is famous, I guess, for his handful of dollar course projects. (Obviously he is more famous for his terrific work, regardless of remuneration - just didn't quite know how to phrase it.)

Tom, I remember on one of the Fountainhead threads a few years ago you said you were glad you hadn't read the book after reading someone's synopsis; you indicated others had recommended the book, presumably because they saw parallels betwen you and Howard. Well, one that does exist is that it was more important for him to see his works completed than to receive his just monetary reward. Ayn would be proud....

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