[Steve_Roths]

had 23 holes or 29 holes or 31 holes?  Would it make it less desirable to play?  Would it not be that well recieved?  Would it not be so highly ranked?

Having visited Sand Hills GC I always wondered what would have happened if they just kept on building hole after hole out there and just let people pick whatever configuration that they wanted.  Or, just tee it up and play all of them until they were tired.

I understand that a public course or private one for that matter must loop back at some point to the clubhouse.  It must have a start and a finish.  But, at an extrememly private secluded course like Sand Hills it wouldn't have to fit that mold.  

[THuckaby2]

Great question.  There sure is room for more golf holes.

My thinking is that if it had this odd number of additional holes, it would not decrease the enjoyment of playing one iota - in fact it would ADD to it in spades.  Of course we're assuming that the additional 11 or 15 or whatever are as good as the 18 there now... fair assumption, I'd say... and if that's the case, then what can possibly be wrong with more great golf holes?

Perception would be another issue, though.  I don't know if Mr. Youngscap or the SH members care about rankings, but if they did, they'd have to designate an "official" 18 for such.  Seems to me that if they care, that too would be easy to do.  Some in the rating world or others of a persnickety nature might them compain that SH has some sort of unfair advantage in this - you know, the same ones that complain about The Country Club or Royal Melbourne having their "composite" courses ranked - but such hasn't really hurt perceptions of those two, has it?

So I think if anything a situation like this might ADD to the mystique, aura, and overall coolness of Sand Hills also...

I really can't see any downsides to this... other than that many holes means that much more money for maintenance.  Maybe Mr. Youngscap and the members wouldn't want to spend that much... especially when they have the world's best 18 holes as it is.  Perhaps the thinking was that was enough... can't say as I blame them!

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Actually, a place like Sand Hills (sans trees, limited membership, large property) would be a great place for an "extra" Sheep Ranchian type "nine-holer", where nine greensites could be built that could be played in countless configurations and multiple directions.  

[Steve_Roths]

The only problem that I see with the Sheep Ranch idea is that there is a lot more rolling hills on the Mullen property than on the Bandon site.  So, it would be hard to play crossovers when you can't see over the hill.  You would also not be able to point to a green and say okay we are playing to that one now, because there might be two or three greens over that hill.  You would have to find a big open stretch that was viewable from all points.  

What would be cool is if you could find a big bowl and place the holes down in the bottom of them.  That way you could incorporate some high tee boxes built up into the hills into the course.  Thus having a hole where you were playing across the entire valley.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

It actually may be an idea one of the newer Sand Hills courses should pursue in order to diversify away Sand Hills GC.

Personally, the only changes that I want to see at Sand Hills are repairs after the winter storms, and sometimes maybe even those changes that Mother Nature produces should stay.

[Brian_Gracely]

The only problem that I see with the Sheep Ranch idea is that there is a lot more rolling hills on the Mullen property than on the Bandon site.  So, it would be hard to play crossovers when you can't see over the hill.  You would also not be able to point to a green and say okay we are playing to that one now, because there might be two or three greens over that hill.  You would have to find a big open stretch that was viewable from all points.  

Steve,

People play holes like that every day at Prestwick.  #5 (Himalaya) is a 170-190yds Par3 that is completely over a hill.  And the approach to the #17 (Alps) holes is similar.  Sure, you probably don't want to play all the holes like that, but if it's one of the options to the green I'd see no problem with that.  It might be good to bringing back the "sporty" element of the early game.

[THuckaby2]

I thought the question here was what if they did this from the start?  Not what if they added more now...  Those are two different perception hypotheticals.  But what the hell, it's all fun to contemplate.

And Brian, the "sheep ranch" idea means a certain number of tees, a certain number of greens, with no defined order to any of it.  You just pick a green to play to and off you go.  So whereas blind holes definitely work at Prestwick, that's because you know when to hit and when to wait, because you've seen the group ahead of you play the previous holes, plus they have a bell to ring when they're gone, right?  In this situation where you might have 12 people playing to and fro, for safety you do kinda need to be able to see the other people.  Thus Steve makes a good point that such a thing might not work well at Sand Hills... at least not going over the hills.

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

How many people are out at Sand Hills on a really busy day....100??  Assuming that you're right about 10-20 people on the "sheep ranch", what's wrong with a bell or two?  If you heard a bell, would you not notice where it came from, especially if it was nearby?  

Why limit your design to only shots you can see?  We don't eliminate parallel fairways just because there is a chance someone could get hit on regular courses, do we?  

[RJ_Daley]

I think another 6-9 hole loop at Sand Hills is an idea whose time has past.  It would have been great had that occured in the late 90s.  I think there is little doubt that 6-9 more holes could have easily been sited in a proximity to the 18 hole highly ranked to offer various routing and playing options.  The way they seem to restrict the number of players that can be out there on any given day, with the unlimitted number of holes the member-guest can play each day, would simply offer the option to put out a few more players, or give them a greater variety.  I'd have to guess the average member-guest combo plays more than 18 a day and I know certain fanatics on this board that would play 54 everyday if they could.  So, if they could play 24-27 different holes in that 36-45-54 hole orgy, so much the better

But, back to reality...  If it could accomodate more member guests due to increased holes and numbers of players, then that could lead to demand for more cabins, larger dining room, more staff.  They don't open now because there just isn't all that many people to draw upon in the local population to service and offer the member-guests the quality experience that makes it so special.  Tom can only cook so many hamburgers on Ben's Porch  Each new hole would cost an additional factor to maintain.  Who'd pay the higher freight and who'd work it?

Lastly, the time is past because of all the other operations moving in on a good thing.  There will be enough variety out there in 3-5 years where even those wishing for that special invite will begin to have enough opportunities to play sand hills style golf where the "novelty" might wear off.  Great golf will never go out of style, but to some extent the prairie experience might begin to get watered down a bit.  

This whole issue conflicts me somewhat... can't get enough of it, don't want it to be overbuilt and diminish the uniqueness of it all...

[THuckaby2]

Brian:

It just seems to me to be more trouble than it's worth.  Again, a bell is all well and good, but if you have no idea if someone is going to be on the green to begin with, what makes you wait for a bell to ring?

Do you suggest people ring the bell when going on the green?  Then again when going off?

Seems like a cacophony of pain in the ass bells to me!  How are you gonna keep track if what you hear is a "start" bell or an "end" bell?

So in the end, to me the negatives outweigh the positives - but ONLY in this "sheep ranch" context.  In more formalized golf, I am all for blind shots - love 'em, keep 'em coming.  I just wouldn't want to get killed, or do the killing, at Sand Hills' version of sheep ranch, nor would I want constant bell-ringing, nor would I want to have to have a constant ear open to try and figure out which bell means what!  To me the only way this works is to limit it to one group at a time, and well... that's a lot of land for four golfers.

TH

[Jfaspen]

I would think that the best way to go forward with this idea would be to use the model that Augusta, Pine Valley and Olympic have followed.  That being a craftily designed par-three course that is as visually stunning as the regular course.  
Not only a great place to settle bets, but also a fun "Extra 9" or a great way to warmup before playing such an awesome golf course.  You could even trick up a couple of the holes just for fun.

Jeff

[Steve_Roths]

I guess we couldn't call it Sheep Ranch since you don't see too many of them out grazing in the hills.  We would have to name it something more related to the livestock that roam those glorious sand hills.  

I agree that it should have been done from the get go but it never hurts to daydream.  But who knows, maybe they could create a small version of the Sheep Ranch with 4 holes and 6 tee boxes.  And, maybe not repair each year as the winds do their thing over the winter.  Make it ragged and beutiful.  

Actually you could name the new area Tire Iron Hill in honor of Mr.Youngscap original name for the property.  That would be a cool logo.  

[THuckaby2]

That does sound like a cool name and would make for a great logo!

But if we're talking adding to the place now, well....

I'm gonna go with "don't do it."  There are very few instances of perfection in this world, and when one finds one, one does not mess with it.

One of the other new courses being built out there can go this route, as Dick Daley says.

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, the extra 9 hole short course par 3 is exactly what Sutton Bay has done to perfection.

Tom, since the Sand Hills is sort of the begining of the wild west, maybe instead of a bell hole, they should have the players wear six shooters and crank a round in the air when they're done with the hole...  It wouldn't be any noisier than Sutton Bay was last fall on opening Saturday of pheasant season. Gun fire always livens up a place...

[A_Clay_Man]

Before opening this thread, part of me wanted it to read:

.... was moved to an oceanside. Would it be as good?  

[RJ_Daley]

Adam, yes.

[Gene Greco]

Brian:

    The busiest day I've seen at Sand Hills in 8 years is 55 golfers.

    I've also been the ONLY one on the course on a number of occasions. Now THAT'S  a surreal golfing experience. It was like playing golf with God - a very spiritual experience.
   

[Brian_Gracely]

Gene,

I had a similar experience at Prestwick last January.  I played the first 14 holes with the club captain and the final four holes alone after we had lunch.  We were the only two people on the course the entire day, and I sworn that I saw Old Tom Morris lurking in the gorse as I played the final loop.  Watching the sunset from the top of the Alps hole was one of the most spiritual experiences of my life.

I suspect Ben's Porch is a similar experience.  You're definitely one of the lucky ones!

[Bill_McBride]

It's funny, one of the cool things about playing Black Mesa last year with Baxter Spann was him pointing out where they almost built holes, and where the next 18 would most likely go.  That remote area outside Santa Fe must be remote like Sand Hills.

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