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Paul_Turner

Muirfield's Bunkers
« on: March 21, 2004, 05:43:09 PM »
Muirfield's bunkers are justifiably famous-beautiful shaped and true "gathering" bunkers.  But they didn't always looks like this.  The old photo below was taken very soon after Colt's  redesign and show his prefered "natural" style.

Which style do you prefer?





NB  This is obviously the current 18th.  But on the b&w photo it's labeled as the 9th.  Would the current 9th be a better finishing hole?  

« Last Edit: March 21, 2004, 05:48:27 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Robert_Walker

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2004, 06:02:20 PM »
9 would be a good finishing hole, but the 18th is better, and the view of the 18th from the clubhouse is better.
I like the old bunkers much better than the new. Who wouldn't?
Finally, the old clubhouse looks better than the new, even though the addition adapts to the old quite nicely.

GeoffreyC

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2004, 06:13:27 PM »
Paul

I'll take the current bunkers.  To my taste they fit the pure links style of the course better.  They also keep their sand in place in the constant winds and the current style will give more irregular stances, lies and swings.  I believe the evolution of Muirfield's bunkers is much for the better.

Jim_Kennedy

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2004, 06:20:16 PM »
Paul,
NPT(never played there)

The bunkers in the lower photo appear to be formidable hazards and no easier to play from than those in the upper. I prefer the less formal look of those in the upper photo but I don't dislike the ones in the lower photo. I think the smaller size might lull a player into a false sense of security because, as you said, they do gather the ball well.      
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Paul_Turner

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2004, 07:01:49 PM »
I reckon that the bunkers in the b&w pic would have been closer to the norm in the 1920s when this pic was taken (look at old pics of Hell bunker for example).  So when did revetting and sod wall bunkers become the mode?  

I actually prefer the randomness of the old bunkers, but still love the moulded/beveled look to the new pots.  

The old bunkers remind me of those at Pacific Dunes...so will we see more formalised bunkers at PD in decades to come?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

ed_getka

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2004, 07:02:17 PM »
I prefer the present day bunkers. They seem to fit into the landscape better. Also the present day bunkers are more exacting in their potential to penalize a wayward stroke.
   The more I think about bunkering in my travels the more I think its the surrounds of the bunkering that determines my preference.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ian

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2004, 07:40:36 PM »
Paul,

I have been fortunate enough to play there, and the bunkers were spectacular, so I couldn't imagine changing them (back).

Robert,

I just don't get your comment about the clubhouse, it is  essentially the same building.

Paul_Turner

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2004, 08:02:09 PM »
I might prefer the current 9th as the finishing hole.  The wall and OB could make matters very interesting.   But I agree that the view of the clubhouse would be sorely missed.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2004, 08:13:21 PM »
Great contrasting pictures.

I will take the bottom/new bunkers.

T_MacWood

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2004, 09:41:12 PM »
In my opinion the b&w bunkers are much better and the clubhouse is better too...the haphazard sand & haphazard smoke stacks = more interesting IMO.

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2004, 10:30:44 PM »
IMHO, they are the same bunkers, modified over the years by the super for practical reasons, which are obvious in photo one - Murifield winds was blowing sand out of the bunkers to easily.

I'm surprised no one suggested taking down the trees, even if they are behind the clubhouse and quite possibly off the property, as having no place on a links course! ::)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2004, 10:31:58 PM »
Tom MacW:

It is a damn shame they got rid of that ten flue chimney and went to central heating, isn't it? But what are you gonna do--I guess that's the price you pay for progress.

As for which bunker look I'd prefer--I like both of them. It looks to me as if the bunkers in the B&W photo were just done though! But I do like that shadowy look in the bottom photo. I think bunkers like that make the golfer have to look more carefully at what's in front of him. Bunkers like that in which the sand isn't visible from afar I think make the golfer concentrate more regarding the danger--they make him pay closer attention to the course.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2004, 10:37:48 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2004, 10:34:44 PM »
Jeff
Spoken like a true disciple of RB Harris.

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2004, 10:46:18 PM »
Tom,

I have spent years working my way away from the RB Harris dictums of easy mowing.  His bunkers never did much to hold in sand - either from rain, because they didn't have much of a front lip to hold sand in, or from Chicago winds, since they flashed up considerably.

However, I do recognize that flashed up bunkers often get changed, in rainly climates like Scotland and Texas) owing to sand wash, and lack of labor to shovel the sand back up, and in windy climates, (like Scotland and Texas) to try to keep the sand where it belongs!  I recall desiging a course in Midland where we varied the bunker style - sand set low as in the second photo for bunkers facing the prevailing south wind, bunkers with more flash if facing north away from the normal winds.

I know this first had, having spent the weekend playing a few of my own courses, and hearing in the pro shop (or seeing in the field) bunkers getting flattened, eliminated, or having bunker liner added in these current recessionary times.  History shows that Scottish Clubs have been in recession since about 1705  ;D and Scottish greenskeepers are known to be, ah, frugal, so practical changes are to be expected, and are probably necessary.

For that matter, is the evolution of those bunkers any more signifigant than say the gradual changes to the Cypress Point bunkers?  I think not.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

T_MacWood

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2004, 11:08:35 PM »
Jeff
I have to bow to your maintenance expertise, but with all due respect Colt had been dealing with links golf for 30 years when he redesigned Muirfield (he started at Rye in the 1890's). What do you think you know about links golf architecture/maintenace that Colt might not have been aware?

Thomas_Brown

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2004, 11:26:00 PM »
IMO - #9 is not a better finishing hole, particularly when #7 & 8 precede it.

I'm not that hot on Muirfield's bunkering - past or present.
To me - Muirfield is more about strategy off of the tee and into the greens.  The bunkers are much more impressive and varied at TOC or RCD.

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2004, 11:38:27 PM »
Tom,

Just speculation, but it could be that he was using the native sand, and it proved to be finer and lighter at Muirfield than other places he worked.  Thus, he may not have realized the problem until after it occurred.  

Or, he just liked the visibility of flash bunkers, and used them, despite the problems for architectural reasons alone.

Or, it may have seemed acceptable to him, or the club at the time to lose some blowing sand, but as maintenance standards rose, some future superintendent or greens chair  (or greens chair golfing wife) decided something had to be done.

Or, perhaps, low set bunkers simply became trendy at some point past his work, and all the Scottish clubs jumped on the me too bandwagon.

Or, maybe the R and A decided one year that the bunkers needed to be toughened up for the Open, and grassnig the banks certainly make them appear deeper, steeper, and more penal.

Or, do you think any or all of the trends listed above is a new phenonemon, and limiited soley to classic courses of the US?

Just some thoughts!

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SPDB

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2004, 01:13:12 AM »
The newer bunkers have more teeth. The entry side of Colt's would not penalize the ball that trickled in, but the newer ones would (in terms of backswing). I like the "holes" better.

Do you have a pic of Colt's right hand greenside bunker? When did the grass island appear?

paul cowley

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2004, 06:24:39 AM »
it seems to me that the bunkers in the first photos had been recently created by excavation.

maybe colt over excavated knowing the edges would fill in .....maybe that was his intent and not a concern.
maybe not.

given the maintenance practices of the day and lack of irrigation ,it would have been much easier to let the edges grow in naturally over time.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 06:34:37 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

ForkaB

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2004, 06:25:03 AM »
Paul

If you could get the look of the 1920 bunkers with the playability of the current ones, it would be Nirvana.  However, hairy, unkempt edges and "gathering" playability are mutually exclusive--unless you have hordes of greenkeeps tending to each bunker as if it were one of JLo's eyebrows.  It's nice that Doak, De Vries and others are designing these retro look bunkers, but I very much believe (and have always done so) that their work will look more like Muirfiedl 2004 than Muirfield 1920, in not too many years.  I also believe that this is not a bad thing.

T_MacWood

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2004, 06:50:30 AM »
Richard
The architectural bug has yet hit the UK like it has here in the States. Might we see St.Andrews, Muirfield, Machrahanish, Princes, Westward Ho!, Sandwich, etc. return someday to their more natural appearance when retro hits the British Isles? Afterall County Down for some reason never succumbed and my sense is RCD's bunkers are considered numero uno in Europe. And St.Andrews survived au natural for 100+ years. I'm looking forward to that day.

When did the grass faced pit become standard?

Jeff
I like your third reason. Are these bunkers shallower than the present bunkers--the flattening photographs make them look about the same depth.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 06:51:24 AM by Tom MacWood »

Paul_Turner

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2004, 08:13:51 AM »
Gents

Thanks for the interesting replies.  Like Tom M, I would still very much like to know how long, sod walled bunkers have been dominant on the links.  

How long did Muirfield's bunkers look like those in the b&w pics?  I don't know, but I suspect several decades with some natural erosion.

I have some more pics.  But they aren't clear.  One of the 4th, which has bunkers that are a bit closer in appearance to the modern bunkers because they are cut into a slope.

Are the current Muirfield bunkers more gathering because the original bunker was larger?  Looking at the bunker in the foreground I think you can just make out a depression outline of the old bunker.

I reckon the run 6-9 is every bit as good as 15-18.  6 is better than 15, 16 and 7 are comparable, 17 is slightly better than 8, 9 and 18 are comparable.  Although I'd contend that 9 has more potential for drama.

Muirfield's current bunkers are the greatest sod wall bunkers on the planet, in my opinion.  Far better than TOC since they redid those.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 08:25:33 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Paul_Turner

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2004, 08:32:17 AM »
Just as another point of interest, many of the bunkers at Muirfield, prior to Colt, were faced with railway sleepers.  Colt had a strong dislike for this style but perhaps it was necessary for erosion prevention.  I'll see if I can dig up a circa 1908 pic for further comparison.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

GeoffreyC

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2004, 09:05:28 AM »

Muirfield's current bunkers are the greatest sod wall bunkers on the planet, in my opinion.  Far better than TOC since they redid those.

Paul - I must say that I agree with you. Funny how some just can't admit that some evolutionary changes are for the good.. Playing Muirfield one never hears players calling for a ball to get into that bunker. Instead one hears -God please give me a stance and a swing towards the hole if I get into that pit. Those current bunkers play like the hazards we all seem to want built.  Those original hazards can't play the same and in addition can't be maintained so its a no brainer to me. Would anyone really want to change that bunker on the right of the 18th green with its famous island and chance for no backswing? Would anyone want to change those sinister cross bunkers on 17? I hope not.

ForkaB

Re:Muirfield's Bunkers
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2004, 09:15:02 AM »
Tom

Don't hold your breath wating for the "architectural bug" to hit the UK.  If it does, it will be likely that Fazio-Rees School will be the main beneficiary. ;)

Tom and Paul

Good questions re: the history of revetting.  My recollection is that when I first visited Scotland in 1978, most bunkers were "sodded" in only a token sense.  This recollection is reinforced by both my old (1976) copy of World Atlas of Golf, which shows only one revetted bunker (a pretty mangy one at Lytham) and my collection of photos from (mostly) Dornoch at around that time.  My more recent recollection is that the revetting movement really began to take hold in the latter half of the 1980's.  I think it was due to a number of factors, particularly:

1.  Prior to that time most maintenance, even at the "top" courses, was done by one man and his dog (or maybe a couple of the village idiots).  There just wasn't enough manpower or money to have more than a perfunctory programme of bunker resotration.

2.  Until that time, there was not that much play on these courses, and so annual damage to bunker faces and edges was relatively minimal and could be repaired at leisure during the mwinter months.

3.  Until then, there was not that much demand for courses (and their bunkers) to "look good."  Two things changed this.  Firstly, the increasing number of visitors (largely American), who were conditioned to greater aestheitc beauty (the Augusta Syndrome).  Secondly, the increasing visits of UK golfers to places like Spain and Florida, where they experienced more highly manicured courses, and THEY LIKED IT!

4.  And most importantly, the revetting of bunkers faces is the best long term solution for keeping their shape and playability.  Now that most UK courses have sufficient manpower and budgets to do so, on a planned roll out basis, they do.

I don't think we'll see any plantings of hairy edges at othe courses than RCD.  It's their thang, and it works for them.  However, Tom, I really don't think that their bunkering would be seen by any group other than the MacKenzie Tendency of this extremist clique we call GCA as being "considered numero uno in Europe."  Top 20 maybe, if one were to believe in such ratings, but not much better......

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