I didn't know that... but it has to figure that such a great man was born on this the greatest of all feast days.

 

Thanks for the reminder.

An extraordinary man in many respects.

A far more complex personality, I think, than is usually depicted.

It's a great shame that virtually all biographical accounts of Jones are sappy hagiographies. Unbearably maudlin stuff.

He deserves better. He was too interesting a character for that kind of treatment.

Bob

 

I'll be raising a glass in the great man's name this evening - and hope all of you will as well.

Robert -

Haven't read it. On your recommendation, I'll get a copy.

Thanks, Bob

Bob: I'd argue the book Sir Walter and Mr. Jones; Walter Hagen, Bobby Jones and the Rise of American Golf is a pretty good account of Jones and his background.

This book is well-footnoted.  The author seems to have researched these gentlemen thoroughly.  It can be very difficult to endure at times (i.e., dull); but, you have a lot of confidence that the accounts are accurate.  The thoroughness allowed me to keep turning pages until I was finished.

For a really outstanding read, try The Greatest Game Ever Played.  It's a very interesting account of Ouimet's U.S. Open triumph, as well as some fascinating information about Vardon and Ray.

And Carlyle, before your time here, I trumpeted "The Greatest Game of All" as an outstanding read also... for which I was beaten down by Dan King, among others, about the factual inaccuracies in that book.  Be prepared to defend if Dan sees this...  

Every biography has factual inaccuracies, particularly if the author relies on quotes and recollections of the participants!  But this was a very enjoyable book--four and a half stars out of five.

Bob Crosby:

I like your first post! I like it very much. Jones was a complex person and a good deal more should be revealed about and made of his early days in golf when he struggled mightly with various things that were anything but godly or Iconish!

Tom Huckaby said;

"I'm not sure if I WANT to think of Bobby Jones as anything but a golfing god.  Perhaps that makes no sense, perhaps it does..."

Tom:

That makes some sense I guess because so many people are inclined to that sort of thing with Jones but for such as us on here who should be far more into historical accuracy it's not advisable, in my opinion.

Bob:

Again, I couldn't agree with you more about Jones. The demons of Jones's early career were in so many ways amelerioted later in his life by a certain crucible of wisdom that lends to the man a certain redemption which may be one of the greatest of all life's occurences.

Frankly, I feel the same revelations should be made about the likes of C.B Macdonald (I hope George Bahto eventually concentrates on this), as it makes him even more interesting and it teaches us more about his times and the world of golf and architecture he lived in.

Personally, I think Arnold Palmer is still in the "flow" of this sort of thing. There're a few things about him that've been buried and glossed over that shouldn't be. If and when they become better known it'll probably make him more real and it'll probably teach us all some valuable lessons!

Gents, "The Greatest Game Ever Played" will be on the big screen in the next couple of months. was there ever a younger caddie (10 years old) than Eddie Lowery to win the U.S. Open. A great book by Mark Frost.

Adam:

Furthermore, I feel more connected to Jones than I ordinarily would because of something I found out about no more than about four years ago. Many of the longer contributors on here might remember it but I'll tell it again.

In the first year or so of Golfclubatlas.com somebody posted a thread titled "What's not to love about golf" and everyone listed their best and most meaningful experiences. It was a wonderful thread.

My old mother (she died this year at 87) dropped by my house and I told her about the thread. (My mother basically had no clue what the Internet was and not that much of a clue about some aspects of golf either). When I mentioned those wonderful experiences in golf on that thread to her, she sat back and said;

"Ah, yes, I remember how wonderful the game was to your Dad and all those he came to know."

Then after a while she told me a story I'd never heard before how she and my Dad sat by the fire at Pebble Beach on a cold misty evening having a drink following a round at the US Amateur in the late 1940s. She said it was just your Dad and me and Bob Jones sitting in easy chairs next to the fire! She said your dad had just lost and Jones made him feel so much better by saying; "Jimmy, it's just a game." I'm convinced my mother had no idea that was a well known remark of Jones's.

Of course, I went "Whoa" and put the story on here in that thread and others went "Whoa" too. But she just said Bob Jones was a very nice man and apparently never thought sitting around the fire with him at Pebble Beach was any big deal!

There's a funny little addendum to that story I'll tell you later. But Bob Crosby is exactly right above when he talks about hagiography!!

 

Great stuff Tom, Thanx.

It seems awfully natural to me, for anyone who knows and appreciates the "essence", had to go through some form of a learning curve.

Many times, mentioning someones short-comings isn't really necessary, but, if the "negatives" results in positives, then the road to get there is important.

I am a great admirer of Jones, but I would agree with Bob, I get the impression there is a dark secret out there somewhere…although I could be wrong and perhaps that impression has more to do with Roberts….and I don’t believe it is related to civil rights.

If I’m not mistaken Jones converted to Roman Catholicism late in his life…I’m not sure what the significance of that is, but I find it interesting.

Regarding this exchange:

"Tom Huckaby said;

"I'm not sure if I WANT to think of Bobby Jones as anything but a golfing god.  Perhaps that makes no sense, perhaps it does..."

Tom:

That makes some sense I guess because so many people are inclined to that sort of thing with Jones but for such as us on here who should be far more into historical accuracy it's not advisable, in my opinion."


My point is that I'm certainly very naive, but not so naive to think that anyone is perfect - as Bob says.  Everyone has faults, even a golfing god such as Bobby Jones.  But dammit, he is a hero.  Has been for a long time.  Does the interest of historical accuracy REALLY require that we dig and dig and dig until we find dark secrets, and tarnish the memory of the man for those who would consider him a hero?

Can't we let some dead heroes lie in peace?

Look, Bobby Jones was a southern man of an era where race relations were certainly different than they are now.  I'd be shocked if he didn't utter the word nigger many times in his life.  But everything I've read would lead me to believe he was more progressive in these matters than most of his ilk... Do I really need someone to dig out quotes where he said that despicable word, for example?

The same goes for depression.  Hell, the latter part of his life had to be pretty damn difficult given the slow-moving but inexorable disease... But most of what I've read has been about the heroic way he faced it.  Do I really need to read that he wasn't as heroic as these stories imply?  That he was after all human?

I for one don't need that.  I KNOW he was human.  I'd be surprised if he didn't have bouts of depression.  The only worth I can see of this is that if it were true, perhaps it would help some people to see mental illness as just that, an illness, and it might help to de-stigmatize this.  But is this potential gain worth putting every aspect of the man's life under the microscope?  

Because to me, if there are darker secrets than this, well... to me it seems such are best left unexposed.  Historical accuracy is one thing, but absolute disclosure of every facet of one's life... well, who not named Christ could be perfect under that type of scrutiny?  What gain does it give?

Nope, allow me to bury my head in the sand.  I like the image I have of Bobby Jones now - and that is as a golfing god, who overcame human frailties and suffered a tragic degeneration with dignity.  A man who counseled Mr. Paul so well with young Tommy looking on... A man who gave one of the great orations of modern times that famous time at St. Andrews... a man who damn well did effect the single greatest achievement in the modern history of sports, in his grand slam.  I'm sure he had faults, and perhaps there are dark secrets.  But I'm very fine with leaving that in the grave with the great man.