On fairway bunkers ?

On greenside bunkers ?

For good bunker players, shallow bunkers, unless you've short sided yourself, have minimal strategic impact. If fact, shallow bunkers may encourage a good bunker player to take a more agressive aiming line.

I've played quite a bit of golf, over the past 10 years, at a couple of courses featuring shallow bunkers with *enormous* impact as hazards. I've played away from them, toward the centers of greens, innumerable times.

What's the magic?

Heavy, deep sand, without any solid foundation for bouncing your sand wedge. In other words: conditions that would make a Tour pro (among others) weep and tooth-gnash.

Quote from: John Kendall on March 17, 2004, 11:02:13 AM

For good bunker players, shallow bunkers, unless you've short sided yourself, have minimal strategic impact. If fact, shallow bunkers may encourage a good bunker player to take a more agressive aiming line.

I've played quite a bit of golf, over the past 10 years, at a couple of courses featuring shallow bunkers with *enormous* impact as hazards. I've played away from them, toward the centers of greens, innumerable times.

What's the magic?

Heavy, deep sand, without any solid foundation for bouncing your sand wedge. In other words: conditions that would make a Tour pro (among others) weep and tooth-gnash.

Dan
     I don't think that touring pros would play very often or very long on a course with unplayable bunker sand.

JK

Attached is a link to the Royal Portrush web site with pictures of the massive "Big Nellie" bunker on 17.

http://www.royalportrush.com/17th.php

Also attached is a link to pictures from the tee of the tenth hole at Portrush.

http://www.royalportrush.com/10th.php


IMO the fairway bunkers on 10 due to placement are of much greater strategic value than massive (both deep and steep) 17th bunker which is penal. Does the bunker on 17 have strategic value? I think placement of the bunker has the greatest correlation to strategy and I view deep bunkers to be penal.

For those of you that haven't been to RPR new website they have some great pictures.

Jeremy Glenn,

Some deranged individual is posting under your name  

I've tended to look at all bunkering in two separate areas.

1. The playability of their sand surfaces and their grass surrounds.

2. The architecture of them basically meaning depth, verticality or occasionally if they have something like a downslope (potential downhill lie). Possibly a few other things like their relationship to a potentially penal greenslope.

So if Pat is asking what the correlation is to bunker depth (which I consider architecture vs lie playability) to strategic value I guess I'd have to say as others have that increased depth increases strategic value (shot values) maybe to some constant degree.

"I wonder if there is a depth beyond which no further strategic value is obtained?

Pat:

That's a good question. I'd sort of think not, though. Just think of the deepest and most penal bunker of your recollection. What did it make you do as far as challenging it in some way or coming anywhere near it? That should answer part of your question for you.

And next, if you happened to get in it what did you do and what were your thoughts--strategically? If it was to simply extricate yourself in any direction or any distance just to get out of it that should answer the other part of your question.

Have you ever found a bunker there was virtually no conceivable way of getting out of which might force you to play stroke and distance? I haven't, with the exception of one and I have a feeling most on here might know which that is---and it's been there for years.

Other than that one there used to be one on the other side of the same green that sure got in your head on the tee and if you happened to get in a part of it there was a fairly well known "smart play" and interestingly it wasn't even to try to get out of it but only on the next shot to the part of it you could get out of. That too was that way for many years.

The only other bunker that comes to mind was one on the right side of the fairway on #3 (I think) at Royal County Down. Basically with that one I'd never try to get out straight--I'd only try to go sideways and I'd try everything I could think of to avoid it off the tee. And I can also tell you if it was raining I'd take cover under it's overhanging front face!!! About this I am definitely not kidding--the top surround positively defies gravity!

Are any of these too penal, in my opinion? No they aren't and they certainly get your undivided attention and concentration so their strategic value is obviously very high--maybe the highest of any three bunkers I'm aware of. Well, on second thought, even they have plenty of competition that's just starting to come to mind!  

JeffB:

Where you been babe?

Adam Clayman,

I'd agree, they, deep bunkers, can make the golfer run the emotional gauntlet.

1  you challenge them, and succeed =                   happiness
2  you challenge them, and fail =                          despair
3  you fail to extricate yourself =                          depression
4  you extricate yourself =                                   happiness
5  you extricate yourself marvelously =                  Jubilation
6  you avoid challenging them & succeed =             Chagrin
7  you avoid challenging them & fail        =             Schmuck
8  you avoid challenging them, succeed, 3 putt =     Idiot  

While humorous, the above is reasonable representation of architectures effect on the play and emotions of the golfer.

Add to the above, that at the completion of that hole, the golfer must now continue his journey by teeing it up on the next hole, his mind filled with one or many emotions from his recent experience.

Now, ask yourself, would a shallow bunker present the same playing and mental challenges and emotions ?

Deep fairway bunkers are terrifying. When standing on the tee, you know that there are no recovery options.  I will take US Open rough over a very deep bunker every day--there is always the 5% chance you might get lucky with a playable lie.  I love the idea of deep bunkers being utilized--they force the golfer to think about bailout areas and where a miss can still offer a recovery. Deep bunkers work best when they are among some shallow ones as well.  If a course only has deep fairway bunkers, it becomes mundane.  There are exceptions in Scotland, but variety of bunkering is more worthwhile.  

I don't want to divert the specific question of this thread but I'd suggest that more be discussed here than just depth if we want to talk about some correlation of all any bunker can be to strategic value. The numerous bunkers on both sides of #2 fairway PVGC, for instance, are such an example. They aren't deep at all (generally no higher than your shin) but they do have curled little lips and faces and they are often very small making recovery iffy but certainly any golfer's choice of what to get out with and in which direction. If you fail to get out of one of them on the first shot generally you're feeling is that you wished you hadn't tried for quite so much. Bunkers like this are about the best, in my opinion, for fairway bunkers and even if subconsciously they definitely are in your mind on the tee so they have a high correlation with added strategic value.

Pat- I like the humor, and I agree with the range of emotions cited. I might transpose schmuck and idiot, though. Part of my point was the marginality of those emotions. In other words, the joy and satisfaction felt, is higher than the low of the depression and despair. I will acknowledge that there is a fundamental difference between the mind set when in competition and when not.  But would you agree that the closer those two temperments become, the better the outcome (experience) for both?

Two menacing shallow bunkers reside on the 16th at Pacific Grove. The right one is the real beast, and is quite influential, when the pin gets placed on the added back right green section.

"This isn't about a specific bunker, it's look, configuration or location, but about bunker depth and its relationship to strategic value."

Pat:

No problem but if we're going to talk about just bunker depth and its relationship to strategic value there're a couple of other factors that need to be considered such as configuration, size, length and angles of bunker slopes, location in relation to other things such as the juxtaposed slope of a green surface and possibly a number of other things. All these things should go through a competent golfers mind in playing those bunkers and other features related to it. Just discussing bunker depth alone in some correlation to strategic value without considering those other factors would otherwise be a discussion in a bit of a vacuum, in my opinion.