[Bill_McBride]

An important question:  is the Redan uphill?  

[TEPaul]

Bill:

Is the redan uphill? Well, it's close and the club wasn't sure and had been calling it "lil' danny" But it's juuuust enough uphill to be allowed to be called a redan, in my opinion, and I told them they should go ahead and call it redan again.

GeorgeP:

The hole that may look very different now from when you may have been there and from the photo above is #7. The entire line of osage orange trees behind the green is gone--basically chewed up by that micro-burst (tornado or whatever it was) that hit the course last year. I don't know if the club plans to replace them but at present it gives that neat little green a bit of a "skyline" look which I think works very fine particularly considering that little "alps" effect on the front right of the green that blinds the small right side of the green surface behind it.

The hole that really fascinates me, though, from a potential restoration standpoint is the green-end on #9--that "Lion's Mouth" effect that can be somewhat seen in the old aerial.

[JohnV]

For those who have been there before this summer, the microburst did take out a lot of trees.  The line of trees on the left of #8 that separated it from #9 are all gone.  A number of the trees right of the Biarritz are also go.  If they could get rid of some of the ones down the right of #8 it would be great, but with the driving range right there it probably won't happen.  Also a lot of the trees behind #6 (redan) were taken out.

A restoration of #9 sounds like it would be wonderful.

[George Pazin]

Bumping due to recent discussion of course. Please note photos on page 1 of this thread.

Tom D really needs to see the course post new work, as he clearly is missing something about the course!

One Raynor trumps all those Flynn playalikes out east....

[George Pazin]

Whoops, should have checked to see if the photos were still operational first. I'll try to upload them to my site tomorrow.

Sorry. Lots of interesting discussion, though.

[TEPaul]

I've got to say I always liked Raynor designs certainly to play them but the completely distinct sharp and sometimes straight lines and squarish geometric lines of his style always made me scratch my head, particularly when I got into really studying golf architecture and the natural and ultra natural aspects and possibilities of one end of the spectrum of it. I always just felt that the "National School" and particularly Raynor just seemed so far removed from that in various ways, particularly look!

But in the last couple of years Raynor's style has definitely been growing on me bigtime! More surprising to me, two of Silva's Raynor restorations at Mountain Lake and Fox Chapel which seem almost caricaturish of Raynor's unique style and look have really been growing on me!

Both those courses play great, and the look is so different! The longer and more I get into this architecture stuff the more I think the real deal is in the differences! I'm gonna ask Bill Coore again what he meant by that but whatever he meant about difference he must be right!

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

I think Silva did an excellent job at Fox Chapel.  

Another excellent job was done by the wind in their "micro-burst" tornado last summer.

The only thing that Fox Chapel needs now is a few more "micro-bursts."

 

[Matt_Ward]

The $64,000 question is how Fox Chapel doesn't receive anywhere near the national acclaim given all the love fests for such incomplete layouts like Shoreacres (both Raynor designs) routinely get.

I guess it must be the fact that too few people "in the know" see anything more than just Oakmont when going through western Pennsy.

[TEPaul]

Matt:

Not me boy--I've been going out there for years. Oakmont, Fox Chapel and Pittsburgh Field Club were alway way high on my list and there're a number of other good ones I always admired that have already been mentioned--Long Vue, Butler, quirky Allegheny, Sunnehanna, Rolling Rock's Ross nine is an old style architectural laboratory etc. There must be something about the weather or soil out there too because those courses always play so well!

[Tom_Doak]

I've only seen Fox Chapel the one time, and I don't know when I'll get back to Pittsburgh.  I remember it fondly, but it was a little run down when I saw it ... as was Yeamans Hall when I wrote it up in The Confidential Guide!

I'd forgotten about the "Lion's Mouth" hazard at Fox Chapel, but I do remember the one at CC of Charleston which George B. compared it to.

"The Lion's Mouth" is the name of the deep swale and bunker which eats into the front of the 13th green on The Old Course at St. Andrews, so I assume that Macdonald got the idea from there.  I just love that hazard; I managed to use the swale years ago to get a leg up on Jim Urbina in our death match over The Old Course.  But no pot-bunker copy will ever look anywhere near as good as the real thing.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

I wasn't referring to his royal highness!

Tom Doak:

You need to revisit -- the course is much better than you graded out in "Confidential Guide."

[letsGoState]

Are any of your guys from Pittsburgh?  I live in the South Hills.
I am 19 but my father has played Fox Chapel about 50 times and says it is a great course.  

I hope to Play there this Summer in the 2004 PA Amatuer.

The pics didnt work,  any chance of reposting them

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul:
I wasn't referring to his royal highness!"

Matt;

Thank you sir! Get used to that label--I like it! These "GODS" on here are getting to be a dime a dozen!

[gookin]

I am almost embarassed by all this gushing about our course.  I missed all the postings from last October. We appreciate all the comments. We are still a work in progress and with Brian's help we will get there.  By the way I disagree with George Bahto. None of our bunker faces are too steep. We did suffer from some sliding on the banks, but thanks to our superintendent Dave Carson all is well. I can show plenty of photos from the 30's which will show they were every bit as step in the original design.  I have a saying for members who question the stepness of our bunkers; "To soften the bunker faces on our Seth Raynor course would be like changing the brush strokes on the Mona Lisa".

Does Tom Doak really believe 12 & 15 are our best holes?

[TEPaul]

gookin:

My understanding is #12 isn't totally Raynor. No matter though, it's an excellent hole, particularly the approach shot.

Your best hole? That's a tough one. For staters #17 is right up there!

After all this gushing, as you say, maybe now isn't the best time but what did Harrison, Erath and Hassenplug do to your golf course? As the green chairman are you completely aware of the design evolution of the course since it was built? If not, is anyone?

[Matt_Ward]

gookin:

Not to bust your justifiable pride but my point on Fox Chapel is meant to illustrate a few things ...

1). Too many raters / reviewers sometimes follow the crowd and hang too much hype on certain courses. In this particular case you see a fellow Raynor course like Shoreacres touted among the top 50 courses in the USA, and, in my opinion, that is a major league stretch when you see a course like Fox Chapel that is clearly beyond it but receives little notice outside of a few people (his royal highness, among others) who have actually played it and follow its progression. Heck, I played the course some time ago and thought it was quite good then.

2). How Digest dropped Fox Chapel to 20th on its last poll is mystifying because of all the upgrades you articulated. I'm not suggesting the course would crack the top ten in the Keystone State that easily because the competition is quite good but when I see the plain as jane layouts at Saucon Valley grabbing a number of positions I just have to wonder what people are looking at and clearly they are missing something IMHO. Ditto the continued appeal of Laurel Valley.

3). Sometimes a mega course (e.g. Oakmont) can suck the air out of a given area because so little is focused on the other courses in the area. Too many times those "in the know' simply chase the "star" course to the detriment of others in that area. This happens to a lesser extent with the superb array of courses in Pennsy but I also see it in my "neck of the woods" in Jersey because so few people see beyond the likes of Pine Valley, Plainfield and Baltusrol.

letsgoState:

I don't live in Western Pennsy but my best college chum hailed from the immediate area (Mon City) and I had the opportunity to play and tour just about all of the acclaimed courses in the area.

Sad to say but too many times western Pennsy is simply thought of as the location of Oakmont. I personally believe Oakmont to be among the five best courses I have ever played and it clearly deserves its high position IMHO. Unfortunately, people "in the know" need to use a good bit more shoe leather and see what else exists in the area. Fox Chapel would be a fine place to start.

[gookin]

As you can imagine it is fun to discuss your own course in this kind of forum. It is great that GCA types will share their knowledge with the masses.  I will promise you FCGC is not focused on improving our relative ratings in PA, Nationally, or relative to other Raynor courses.  Our goal is to make our course the best that it can be.  We think we will accomplish this by being as true to Raynor's original design as practical in the modern world, establishing standards for course set up which provides day to day playability, and create an environment for exceptional turf conditions.  This is basically the mission statement for the green committee.  The payoff is not an improved rating, but the thrill you get each time you walk down the first fairway.

And I will still say we are #3.

[TEPaul]

gookin:

Good for you and all you just said! Stick with what works best for your course and all your members in the best spirit of your original architect--Seth Raynor. Don't listen to any of this rating and ranking mumbo jumbo or any or those who ply it! These people are nothing more than modern day carnival hucksters! They can't conjure up a constructive thing to say about your course other than it's "high octane" or not and they can't give you an iota of architectural advice whatsoever other than to tell you to "smell the coffee".

You fellows at Fox Chapel are on the right track--no doubt about it--and don't derail your focus by listening to these nonsensical magazine rankers. Whether they think you're 3rd or 30th in the state makes absolutely no difference to what's best for Fox Chapel!

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

You royal highness -- how bout toning down the barking about other's comments / re: high octane shot values? I really like Fox Chapel so save your "sermon on the mount" bromide about ratings.

By the way I'm glad you opined on the 3rd best course in Pennsy -- I hope you're not setting a precedent with such an "out of the closet" comment. Say it ain't so -- Tom.

Maybe I might need to "smell the coffee" since you may be taking a different tact. Even old birds like you can swing new songs at times. From my lips to God's ear ...

[Tom_Doak]

Matt W:  The case you are actually making is that none of these Raynor courses should be so highly rated.  If they are all interchangeable, they all fail mightily at being different.  And I still think that's an important part of rankings.  If it weren't, then I guess you should put the Short Course at Pine Valley at #2.

[George Pazin]

Sorry I haven't had a chance to repost the pictures - I'll probably do it when I return from the wonderful winter meeting. Hope to meet more people there!

Tom D -

The difference between the before and after photos is pretty significant, so I eagerly look forward to your opinions. The course really seemed like a special place the day I visited. Wonderful terrain for Pittsburgh and really dramatic bunkering.

P.S. I'd be curious to know what others think of the Eden hole - seemed pretty damn great to me. Deep bunkers and one of the most pitched greens I've ever seen.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Doak:

I never said what you posted. I simply stated that certain Raynor courses get a big time amount of ink (e.g. Shoreacres and Yeamans Hall, to name just two) yet on the flip side you have a course like Fox Chapel that is, at least I think so, no less their equal but unfortunately is somehow lost in the sauce of relative obscurity beyond the contingent of people in Western Pennsy and a few others.

My point Tom is that people "in the know" need to really bone up on what is there before continuing with the same cast of characters in any ratings examination. Things do change -- even you yourself admit you have not been back to a wide variety of courses in quite some time. Currency is indeed an important ingredient in such a process -- don't you think?

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