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Theodore Havemeyer

Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2003, 02:48:23 PM »
Matt
I agree with your assessment, but I wouldn't have the arrogance to claim I REALLY know golf and those who disagree with my assessment REALLY don't know golf.

One more try....how does one determine if someone REALLY knows golf....what is the criteria and who determines the critieria? Do you really know golf?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tilly

Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2003, 08:31:53 PM »
Metroman wrote, "The reason that Plainfield is so underrated is because Baltusrol Lower has been so overrated."  

How can this be?  Is this a claim of discrimination against Plainfield?

Are other great courses similarly discriminated against because they don't host the Big Shows in golf -- Quaker Ridge, Pine Valley, the National, to name a few?

Any man has as much right to his own opinions as have I.  However, I do know what I like and when I encounter something contrary to my ideas, but nevertheless liked by others, it seems a good Idea to consider the pros and cons whenever possible.

"There is no disputing tastes, as the old lady remarked as she kissed the cow."  Certainly this must be applied to golf and its courses.  The merit of any course should be judged by the satisfaction it affords to those who play it.  It may not measure up to the standards of the most discriminating players but after all it all is a matter of taste.

During forty years I have probably trod as many golf holes as any man in the world, many of my own creation and many, many more designed by others.  I know a good hole when I see one and I think I know a bad one, too.  Some of the latter type obviously are atrociously faulty, others just over the border of mediocrity, while some apparently weak ones may be open to debate.

This writer was the golf architect for Baltusrol, and as such I confess my immense liking for my creation, the Lower and Upper courses.  They were designed to be equally sought after as a matter of preference.

The secret of my championship courses is no secret at all, long, accurate second shots after long, placed drives.  It was the same principle on the Lower in the 1926 championship, at Winged Foot in 1929; the Five Farms course at Baltimore in 1932 during the Amateur National, the Upper in the 1936 championship, and Bethpage in the 1936 public links championship.  

My own observations in checking the play over such courses of mine as have been the scenes of National and Sectional championships have made me firmly convinced that the character of the one-shot or, par 3 holes has more to do in checking the assaults of the 70 breakers than any other factor.

A.W. Tillinghast
The Creator of Baltusrol
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Philippe_Binette

Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2003, 06:37:59 AM »
Most overrated, every boring, no strategy, courses by Tom Fazio, artificially built for 20 millions$ that look out of place, with pine in the middle of the desert and so on....

A proof it is overrated, it cost 500$ to play and it has no significant impact on the golf world...

Another thought, how about Augusta National with Fazio's changes... You have to frame the holes at Augusta!!! how can an architect doesn't understand the game like that....  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

metroman

Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2003, 09:37:48 AM »
Tilly,

A lot has happened since you were last in town.

Baltusrol gets the press, but the lower has become a driver/3-wood golf course, hole after hole.  Even your beloved upper has been lengthened

Plainfield recently withdrew from hosting the USGA SENIOR OPEN for related reasons, yet Plainfield remains an excellent golf course while remaining in Baltusrol's media shadow.

Phillipe,

ANGC remains a superior golf course.
While it may be popular to bash Fazio and indicate the course is much worse because of him, understand that ANGC has undergone a great number of changes by a great number of architects/advisors over the years, yet it remains a terrific golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2003, 09:41:25 AM »
Quote

and a superb dropshot par 3 that Nicklaus once called the best hole on the property. #10 (Reg) is easily the weakest hole of the six, but #9 and #12 (Reg) are arguably better than the holes that replace them.


A little clarification is probably needed for this quote. I'm pretty sure that the comment Nicklaus made (while walking from the composite 9 green to the composite 10 tee, which takes the player by the drop shot par 3 in quesiton), was something to the effect that the hole was "the greatest par 3 i've never played."

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2003, 11:39:23 AM »
T. Havemeyer:

Pardon my perceived "arrogance." You're absolutely right -- why should one say something even if they treked to who knows how many facilities throughout the USA and particularly the greater NY / NJ area to say such a thing?

My comments were straightforward -- a great many people convey "greatness" primarily because a course has hosted several major championships. I believe people who really do know golf don't just look at that singular issue and do that. I view the crowd on GCA to be a bit more sophisticated in  their approach -- just like you Mr. Havemeyer. ;)

I think I have some clue on what course analysis is about -- you may feel differently and if you do I say fine show me the contrary point so I can learn from it!

What's amazing is we agree on Baltusrol v Plainfield. Amazing -- right? That being said -- I believe when people do criss-cross the nation / world and they do provide salient comments I believe they have something to offer. I keep my ears open to those commentaries.

If you read my last post VERY CAREFULLY I did say I would be happy to hear a contrary view. My mind isn't closed. In addition, I did state that I have not heard from one person on GCA who did say that Baltusrol / Lower is the superior architectural design to Plainfield.

Let me venture an answer to your question -- I base someone's golf knowledge by the desire they have to expand their awareness level of the game. First and foremost, you need to have the passion to get out of the living room chair and play what's out there. Second, you have to have the ability to decipher what a course has and what it's missing. I believe I did that with the debate on Baltusrol v. Plainfield.

I take pride in being fair when I do course assessments. If you disagree so be it. Just provide your detailed commentary and I'd be happy to read it. Simple as that. That's the premise of GCA -- to learn and advocate positions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2003, 05:28:57 PM »
Gene,

When I read Whitten's article, it reminded me of your post from way back when.
http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/americasgreatest/index.ssf?/courses/americasgreatest/gd200305leftrightcourses.html

Gene wrote:

People who aren't enamored with Sand Hills are usually anal type A accomplished players who grow frustrated as a round progresses watching the slightly less skilled but more imaginative player compete as an equal.

Muirfield as opposed to The Old Course
Medinah.................Chicago Golf Club
Prairie Dunes...........Sand Hills
Shinnecock.............National Golf Links of America
The Bridge..............Maidstone
Olympic Club...........Cypress Point
Bruce Crampton.......Seve

You say everyone would want to play Cypress over Olympic?
You're wrong and I know more than one individual who states unwaveringly that Olympic is a better test for them and holds their interest to a greater degree.

Hard to believe but we're all different.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2003, 05:39:10 PM »
While I don't doubt what Gene says is true, he speaks to such a tiny number of golfers.  Maybe one in a thousand are scratch or better and would be more challenged by and consequently prefer Olympic over CPC.  I have a wee suspicion that if both courses suddenly became available to all, the other 999 golfers would be lined up at the gates of Cypress.....

JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2003, 06:07:29 PM »
Jonathan:

    As would I!!!

But I'm NOT an accomplished player.

Don't be surprised when Saddam's body is found it is discovered his death was not caused by Allied forces but rather by one of my errant drives.;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2003, 06:16:21 PM »
Gene my man, you can play with me anytime!  I have lots of connections and can arrange for you and I to play Cypress together anytime you want.....  (ahh, Cypress Bay in Norfolk that is... ;) )
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Overrated Courses in the World
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2003, 06:34:24 PM »
Mike:

   I can't believe you or anyone else reads(much less remembers) any of the vacuous slop I jot down here!:P

I was a Psych major and love to watch how different people receive various golfing experiences. Whitten's artical has a similar theme to what I had posted at an earlier date. I said Type A vs. Type B he says left or right brain.

Could it be Ron Whitten got his inspiration to write this artical in GD from the blather I wrote on GCA?

Nah.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010