Laying up for a flat stance?

[Paul_Turner]

I've nicked this observation from a Tom Doak article in the Oz publication "Golf Architecture".  It's a subtle but very interesting strategy or hazard.  What are good examples?

I can think of the 1st at Bandon Dunes, where, from the normal tees, I think a good strategy was to lay up a little before the dip, and in doing so, removing the possiblity of a hanging lie to a raised green.

[TEPaul]

Some great examples of this are the 1st and 9th holes of Misquamicut. I think a better idea though is to have to hit the ball farther and take more of a risk to get a flat stance not necessarily lay back. #1 Huntingdon Valley is a great example of having to hit the ball farther for a flatter stance. Frankly, there're a number of holes like this at Huntingdon Valley--#6, #7, #8, #9, #10 as well as a few others to some degree come to mind.

[Matthew Mollica]

It's a nice little feature when encountered on the course.

TWP's National Ocean course boasts just such a feature, on the par four forth hole. For those that know it, the quarry which guards the inside of the dogleg rght, cannot sometimes be carried (depending upon wind strength / direction).

Even in good conditions, the lie encountered after missing the drive a little left, is sometimes quite ordinary.

Although the lay up leaves a blind approach, a simple mid iron off the tee, played just prior to the quarry, sees a nice flat little landing zone, which leaves only 150-odd metres to the green.

Matthew

[ForkaB]

I think it all depends on the risk/reward characteristics of the two (there may, of course be more....) alternatives.  If the layup only sacrifices 10-20 yards, then it would be generally preferable.  On the other hand, if you can get a turbo-boost by going long (think 13 and 15 at Augusta) and gain 50-70 yards in exchange for the dodgy stance, go for it.

[wsmorrison]

Byron Nelson told me in an interview for the Flynn book that Tom Paul and I are writing about his play to the flat portion of the fairway on the 4th (currently the 17th) hole at Philadelphia Country Club during the 1939 US Open.  The hole starts uphill over a pond, bends right and finishes sharply downhill.

Most of the competitors would hit drivers and try to fade the ball on the 453 yard par 4 dogleg right hole so as to utilize the downslope for added yardage on this long hole.  Of course, this left a downhill lie to a large green with few if any straight putts and with trouble all around, especially right.  

Nelson said that each of the 6 times he played the hole in the tournament he used a 3 wood to keep the ball on the flat part of the left side of the fairway.  He felt that a level lie was more important than added distance.  He was regarded as one of the great long iron players of his day.  In the second playoff with Craig Wood, Nelson played the same way and had 220 yards to the pin.  Playing a 1 iron from a flat lie, he holed the shot for an eagle and a 3 stroke margin over Wood at that point in the round.  He went on to win that playoff shooting 70 to Wood's 72 on the par 69 setup.  Although playing to a par of 69, there were a lot of long par 4s (par 5s for the members) and that his outstanding long-iron play was, he feels, what contributed to his victory.

Byron Nelson remembered in complete detail all of his shots in the tournament and most of those of his competitors.  He told me that when he returned in 1990 for the club's centennial celebration he noticed the plaque was about 10 yards from the actual spot.  He mentioned that he was closer to the middle of the fairway.  On this occasion, he borrowed a 2 iron moved a little closer and nearly holed the re-enactment!  The shot just missed the cup.  After the club regrassed all the tees, fairways, and greens they were to put the plaque back to the spot that Nelson indicated.

[ian]

Paul,

I layed up at #1 at Pacific Dunes to hit a full wedge from the flats too. I did the same at Cypress Point #9. I like to do that often on the second shots on many par 5's. The reason you lay back is to score better.

We are collaborating with Bob Cupp on a 36 hole course in Toronto. The courses are both co-designed so we sat down and worked all the strategies out together as a group. On a short par four, Bob was adament that he wanted to remove the 5 iron from the players options. That area was tightly pinched to take that shot away and a "flat" was offered if you could carry 200. The hole is 350 from the back, large right to left cross slope, and water all the way down the right. (You'll be please to know that the fairway runs down into the green which runs away from play-so its designed to feed the great drive).

 Anyway, where was I going? The question I pose to you is should the lay-up be to a flater area to reward the prudent play, or should it be well cantered and tough since they were unwilling to take the aggressive line.

(sorry about the lack of english previously)

[Eric Pevoto]

Wayne makes a great point with the 17th at Philadelphia CC.  The lie left after a driver is downhill and hanging with all the trouble right.  Not good odds.

Think about the flip side of the strategy.  Playing into lies that will help you move the ball in a desired direction or trajectory.  

I found a great example yesterday while walking French Creek with a wedge in hand.  The third shot at the eleventh calls for a shortish little pitch into the green (over a low stone wall).   By playing a riskier second over a bunker and into the higher right side, not only is there better view of the green, but with the ball slightly above your feet, you get a lie that promotes a "trappy" little punch shot into an approach and green that's much longer than it is wide.  

The lie on the lower left is flatter, but you can't see the green surface and you're forced to hit more of a lob shot.  Essentially, you're asked to judge distance more accurately, but are given less to work with visually.  

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

In my article, at least, I was talking about the golfer choosing to hit a shorter drive (or second shot) in order to get a better stance for the next one.

The first I ever heard of this was in an article about the 1951 US Open, where a fellow competitor noticed that Hogan was always playing from flat stances instead of sideslopes on holes like #10.

Crystal Downs has at least two holes of this description.  At the par-4 seventh, you pretty much have to lay up now that the bank down to the lower fairway is thick rough.  However, on the second shot to the par-5 eighth, it's much better to play short and right than to be sucked down into the bowl below the green.

I don't know if Alister MacKenzie thought about these plays, or not ... I suspect not on the eighth, it's the kind of thing you learn only after playing 50 rounds of golf there.

I have tried to build this strategy into a handful of holes I've done, with mixed success.  My first attempt was the fifth at High Pointe, where the fairway peaked at a ridge 235 yards from the tee, and then fell away into undulations much like the seventh at Crystal Downs.  (Originally, you could also get behind a small cherry tree if you drove it too far.)  

In its infinite wisdom, the management of High Pointe has now built a back tee on the fifth so you have to hit a full driver to get to the crest of the fairway!

[Buck Wolter]

Doesn't 15 at Augusta Nat'l have that feature? I seem to remember Tiger laying well back while Vijay (I think) hit down the fairway. Tiger had a full wedge from a flat lie while Vijay had a half shot from a downhill lie over a pond. Needless to say Tiger's play was much better.

Buck

[Gary_Smith]

Shinnecock #10.

[Tom_Doak]

Buck:

There isn't a particularly flat place to play to from the 15th fairway at Augusta ... from 250 yards in, it's all downhill toward the water.  However, to leave yourself less than a full wedge shot from that stance is a bad play for 99% of golfers, including Vijay Singh.

[A_Clay_Man]

Spyglass Hill has a few of these situations. The most obvious of which is on #11. While most of the big hitters will have a go for it two, the average joe will undoubtedly be screwed if they don't just layup to the 100. The area inside 100, I understand use to be a cross-water hazard but is now covered over and is fairway cut. The slope, both down and up, is so severe that most will score very high from these spots.The second and fourth have similar opportunities but not as dramatic.

The ninth at Pebble has a few flatter sections on the left in the 230-175 range which use to be a pretty decent drive.

[Buck Wolter]

Tom-
I'm sure TV doesn't do the slope justice on 15.

I'm going to be there for my first time next Sunday and will put that on my list of things to look for.

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul Turner:

Mom and Pop golf in Cleveland seems to be loaded with this sort of thing. The names of the courses probably aren't worth mentioning, but this feature can be found on many courses, sometimes on multiple holes.

Donald Ross did a spin on this theme on the short 16th at Manakiki. Here the choice is to lay up with a mid iron or try to hit down a hill and risk finding a stream hidden from the tee.

The lay up provides a much longer approach (maybe 150 yards) but a clear view of an elevated green. Personally I'd rather hit a 150 yard 8 iron where I can see what I'm doing than a 70 yard blind sand wedge.

Assuming I'm playing well enough to control my tee shots, playing for lie is definitely something I try to do. Isn't the 9th fairway on Pebble Beach the sort where certain positions - specifically the right side closer to the beach - are better for setting up the approach shot to the green?

[NAF]

Paul,

This is very timely to me considering the restoration we have at Alpine as some at the club wanted to add length to the 310 yard #14th which has a two tier fairway.  Choose the upper fairway which requires 220 yards carry and you are left with a sloping slice lie to a green that moves away from you with that shot.

Choose the lower fairway and lay up, then you can hit a shot of say 170 yards (so you don't go into the cross bunkers cut into the ridge) and you are left with a flat lying 7 or 8 iron uphill into the green..

I used to always go for the upper fairway, now I lay up.

[Jim_H]

I heard Dave Pelz say (probably on The Golf Channel) that the concept of laying up to a desired distance or lie was no longer a preferred play for most anyone.  He said that the pros no longer did that.  He reasoned that with the new wedges a shorter shot was always better.
Personally, I don't agree.  I need a full shot, and I prefer a flatter lie--and I seem to see pros laying back when they can't reach a green.  Fifteen at Augusta is a good example.  
Who's right?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

Valley holes, like the 1st hole at The Knoll are designed to present this dilema.

Banks may have acquired his taste for Valley holes from
SR/CBM.

George Bahto could certainly comment and add to this discussion.  George ?