ACE Club in trouble?

[Jason Mandel]

The ACE Club in Lafayette Hill, designed by Gary Player, formerly Eagle Lodge opened this year to some very good reviews.  I know a lot of people on here critcized it without seeing it, myself included because it was a 7500 yard Gary Player layout and also because the old course was not a bad course, it was an early reese jones course.

Almost everyone that I have talked to that has played the course has told me it was fantastic, although the course is not walkable from what I have heard.  The construction of the course/clubhouse has been estimated between 30 and 40 MILLION.  

There are now rumors in the Philly area that ACE could be in serious trouble.  They are having a real hard time selling the memberships, in what was supposed to be a corporate place much like Commonwealth in horsham.  Rumors are that housing developers were out at the site last week and it was a very real possibity that the club could be sold to the developers.

I want to re-iterate that as far as I know this is only a rumor, I have no idea to the actualy truth of it but I thought I would pass the information along.

Jason Mandel

[John Gosselin]

Jason, I believe the construction was in the 12mm range, which is still an awful lot to spend on actual construction of a golf course, especially that site.

[Jason Mandel]

that number i heard includes the new clubhouse,which i don't know what that cost but i'm sure it wasnt cheap! thanks for the correction though.

like i said i havent been out there yet but i have been told that theres a ton of earth moving that went on out there, and that all the moving of the boulders which are out on the course must have been extremely expensive as well.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jason

I have not played there either. The only thing that I have heard was that they substantially reduced the membership fees(still high for the area) and are trying for more individual memberships. ACE is a pretty big insurance company and I don't think they would write off a project this big so soon. The clubhouse from what I hear is spectacular. I've heard differing opinions on the course.
Commonwealth, my former club,opened in 1990 has 50 corporate memberships of the 275 total memberships. It took them awhile but membership is full there.

www.theaceclubonline.com


Steve

[Don Dinkmeyer]

This is just not a great time to sell corporate or individual memberships. The bubble burst several years ago...it's truly a supply and demand issue where demand simply does not exist.

Curious, anyone know what fees they are talking about?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Were eliminating the uphill holes and blind shots really worth 12 million?  I thought the old one wasn't bad.

GO YANKS!

[Mike_Cirba]

Part of the bottom line is this;

The old Eagle Lodge course was perhaps a Doak 5 on an interesting, rolling property.

Millions of $$ later it looks pretty cool with stylish bunkering, better green conditions, and a lot of dough spent on stoneworks but in reality it's about a Doak 5.  It's also much less walkable than it was before.

It's a tough neighborhood to spend that type of cash unless you can come up with something pretty special.  The ACE club is not.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

"Almost everyone that I have talked to that has played the course has told me it was fantastic, although the course is not walkable from what I have heard."

Jason,

I definitely fall into the group that was pleasantly surprised by the course and its design when I played it this summer.  I played the ACE Club, Stonewall (North), and White Manor within a few weeks of each other and I thought that the ACE Club held its own in comparison to the other two.  If pressed, I would rank ACE third of the three, but not by much.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts after playing the ACE Club and comparing it to White Manor.  Both have a very modern feel to them, but I felt that White Manor had more design variety and better continuity through all 18 holes.

Finally, the amenities at the ACE Club are fantastic, but way overdone.  Flatsceens over the urinals, PRO V's on the range, etc.  I kept thinking if I was a shareholder of a ACE, I would be outraged at such an expenditure.  When I was there they had less than 70 members and 500+ solid mahogany lockers in the locker room.

[Jason Mandel]

Guys,

I should have prefaced my statement about ACE being fantastic saying that the comment had not come from anyone from the treehouse.  Mostly guys that are not generally interested in architecture per say, but like good golf.  I had a feeling that their idea of fantastic and most on this site are a little different, but none the less I really haven't heard anyone have too much bad to say about the course.

Geoff,
I will try and compare the two after I play the ACE club, which I am going to try and do shortly since my pro says that are begging for people to come over there.  I'm sure I will be a little biased, however .  Just from what I have heard I think there had to be way more earthmoving over there than what we did  I do agree that our course does have a modern feel to it now, with the classic feel appearing in places but not the overall feeling that you get when playing the course.

Redanman,
I haven't yet played Stonewall(Udder) yet, but the few members of stonewall that I have talked to like the other course but not as much as the regular, which is  certainly understandable.  I have heard that the green complexes on North are lots of fun though.

ACE is a huge insurance company but to build that place and be open for almost a year and only have 60 something members as of last month really says something.

Also, I have been on that property countless times and to think they could build something that is not-walkable is really hard to fathom.  

Jason

[Mike_Cirba]

Also, I have been on that property countless times and to think they could build something that is not-walkable is really hard to fathom.  

Jason

Jason;

It's called "let's find the nearest, highest point and drive up there to build a tee so we can "maximize" the views of the property and lay out everything in front of the golfer.  I suspect Mr. Player had a bit of influence with that one.

Also, at the risk of sounding like a Doak "butt boy", Stonewall North is heads and shoulders over The Ace Club.  If given 10 plays, I'd play SN 9.5 times.  I haven't seen White Manor since Weed's work, but I'm hoping to soon.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I seem to remember that building lots for housing on the perimeter of the course were part of the plan when the new course was built as ACE bought additional acreage. Perhaps this brought builders to see the property.
The original concept for the club was corporate memberships only. Obviously, this market isn't ripe for a totally corporate club. Individual memberships are now somewhere around 40K, high for this area. Good luck to ACE.

[hoggmeister]

The original price was $150,000 for a corporate foursome. There was a sliding scale of something like. $65,000 for the first memberhip, $45,000 for the next, etc to a total of 150.

If I remember correctly they bought an additional 60 acres. I do not think housing was originally part of the plan.

[Mike_Trenham]

Sarbanes Oxley could be the real long term issue for the ACE Club.  With few Ace Employees using the club and limited profitability if membership is as low as reported this does not pass the sniff test.  MBNA just sold off Deerfield for just this reason.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike

Here's an article about the MBNA sale of Deerfield. I think Deerfield was operated as an employee benefit as there was a very reasonable annual charge for membership. Non employees could purchase an annual membership if the employees did not fill the membership roll. I played there once and the facilities and the course were very impressive. The new owner is a real estate developer whose intent, at least initially, is to continue operating the golf club. I don't know if it will be public or private. The ACE Club has not been a hit because of the high membership cost. ACE sponsors a senior event in Florida and there was talk of them sponsoring an event here. Unless they further reduce individual membership costs, I don't know how ACE can continue operating this club even  with their deep pockets.

www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2004/09/28mbnasellsgolfco.html

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

The ACE Club is fantastic

If your definition of fantastic is

BIG

BIG fast greens without contour
Plays easier than it looks
Lots of downhill shots and visibility
Long, but doesn't play long
Perfect conditions
Unwalkable in a reasonable amount of time for a 53 year old cripple
Stylish, but full of what passes for character instead of real character

My opinion of White Manor and Stonewall Udder vs. ACE (Unsolicited) is at least an order of magnitude for White Manor and Stonewall North (Udder) at least two orders of magnitude better.  Stonewall Udder is for some a better course than the first Stonewall depending on tastes.  They are rather different.

I can barely give the ACE a Doak 4.

I have no idea about their financials. It is a very pleasant place to play golf and very stunningly beautiful - but not much in the way of anything strategic or unique.  There are even a few really ho-hum to weak spots.

Redanman,

Let’s address your criticisms here...

BIG fast greens without contour
They certainly are big and fast (not negatives in my book), but they are by no means flat.  #9 comes to mind immediately as a green with some interesting contours and most have subtle breaks that are also influenced by the slope of the property.

Plays easier than it looks
I agree with this point... if you play smart, conservative golf from the correct set of tees you can score.  But is that a negative?  Try playing from the tips at 7500+ yds with a little wind and the rough up...

Lots of downhill shots and visibility
Again, not necessarily a negative in my book.  You have to take it in context with the rest of the course.  #5 is a wonderful, shortish par 4 where the downhill tee shot brings strategy into play.  The bunker in the middle of the fairway forces you to decide whether or not to lay up short right, go to the left of the bunker to a smallish sliver of fairway or try to drive the green.  I also enjoyed the down hill par 3 on the back, #14 with a ravine fronting the green.  Bethpage Black is another course with downhill shots (#1, #4, #5, 2nd shot on #6, #8, #16, #18) and visibility, and it doesn't detract from the experience there.

Long, but doesn't play long
The downhill shots, conditioning, and length of the par 5's certainly help.  However, you have to drive the ball well (#3 & #7 are both tough drives from the tips) and there are a few shortish par 4's that can also jump up and bite you.  #8 is a great example - 337 yds, uphill from the white tees and plenty of slope in the green and a shaved chipping area short left.

Perfect conditions
Agreed - with the exception of the 9th fairway which was being repaired when I was there.

Unwalkable in a reasonable amount of time for a 53 year old cripple
Totally agree - the #1 criticism I have of the course.  Jason, if you don't think it’s possible to create a course that's not walkable on that property... just wait.  The walk from #5 to #6 is ridiculous and it is definitely the routing, not the topography that caused this issue.  I have seen very walkable courses on land similar to this (The GC at Glen Mills comes to mind).

Stylish, but full of what passes for character instead of real character
Please explain this statement a little more.  "What passes for character" and "Real Character" means different things to different people, so I don't want to assume your definitions here.

Finally, I do think there a few average to below average holes in the design.  #1 is a relatively easy start (which I rather like), #4 is a bland par 3, and I was not a big fan of #15 or the semi-blind downhill tee shot on #11.  However, I did like the par 5 finishing hole, with the pond right of the green.

I am not directing this at you Redanman, but sometimes I think people prematurely dismiss courses like this because of the over-the-top nature of the facilities and the notion that they moved a lot of earth in the construction.  I wish more people would take a “tabula rasa” approach to courses and just evaluate the course based upon the merits of the design and the experience they have on the property rather than focusing on how the course was constructed.  In addition, contrary to some opinions on this board, I truly believe it is possible to have a modern looking golf course (even one that moves a lot of earth in its construction) which is also a quality design.

[ed_getka]

I will take a shot at the what passes for character vs. real character statement of Bill's just for fun. I would imagine it has something to do with being pretentious and ostentatious. Pro V's on the range , flatscreen TV's over the urinals , and I can only imagine what other excesses they have come up with. I would imagine there are a few people running around that place that LOVE to tell you how much the 500 mahogany lockers cost, etc...
   Real character for me is Garden City's locker room clubhouse, a perfect place to relax without pretense (other than having to wear a jacket ).
    Am I close Bill?

[ed_getka]

Geoffrey,
   I don't think there are many on this site that would argue you can't build a good golf course when you have to move a lot of dirt. The problem usually is that you can tell that a lot of dirt has been moved and it just doesn't look natural.
   Talking Stick, Shadow Creek, and the Rawls course at Texas Tech come to mind based on what people have had to say here. I haven't seen any of those courses.

[George Pazin]

.... the new one is pure redhead wild and more fun.

Hard to think of a more compelling reason to visit a course.

 

[Dan Herrmann]

Has anybody played ACE and Jasna Polana, Player's other course in metro-Philly to provide a comparison?

I saw Jasna Polana on a Golf Channel "Playing lessons from the Pros" with Player, and was underwhelmed.

I think that The ACE club is a shame, because I felt that Eagle Lodge was a fun and enjoyable golf course.    Reminds me of the guy that buys a $500K house only to tear it down and build a $5M mansion acting as a tribute to himself.

[Jason Mandel]

Dan

I haven't seen either in person.  The playing lesson from the pro's I saw with players was done at ACE club, just prior to opening.  

I haven't seen the one done at Jasna Polana.

Bill,
I know Doak didn't route the first one, but when you said carts back to tee I can't help but think of the one at the original stonewall after the par three, i think its 5 to 6.

jason

[Mike_Cirba]

Jasna Polana is the site where three middle-aged architectural afficianados laughed hysterically like 5th graders at a fart joke as we surveyed the hideous architecture.  

I think the one that finally got us was the well-protected (by bunkers) chipping areas surrounding the 14th green.  

The ACE club is much better than that.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

I had been resisting this for a while, but what the hell....this club in financial trouble is an ACE in the hole.

Maybe I should have continued to resist....


The Player Playing Lessons from the Pros was at the ACE club, and it wasn't fully grown in yet when it was done, as patchy spots in the turf were everywhere.