This Just In: Scottsdale Nice As PVGC

[Forrest Richardson]

In the 4-7-03 Arizona Republic newspaper we have a feature about Scottsdale and its golf offerings. And, now I quote a Mr. Rick Waller of suburban NY who says:

"I have played on some great courses back in Jersey like Pine Valley and Baltusrol, and this is as nice as any of them. It's absolutely beautiful here. You look at the vegetation and the desert flora and the quality of the courses...this is tremendous."

From the article one might guess Mr. Waller was playing either Troon North or Grayhawk, although this is not disclosed.

I would guess that Mr. Waller is representative of an average golfer — the millions of casual or traveling golfers who do not spend any time on GCA or contemplating any of the topics we do here, at leats to any degree. So what are your thoughts? Do you care? How might the Mr. Wallers of the world become more enlightened? Or is this even a need?

[Tim_Weiman]

Forrest:

It has been a long winter. I played my local muni last week and it was as good as Pine Valley.

I'm happy for Mr. Waller. He doesn't need to be "enlightened".

[Steve_L.]

Follows in line with the old saying - "there is a butt for every seat..."

Scottsdale needs to market itself as a great golf destination - the people who need to know Pine Valley is great probably already know...

[Forrest Richardson]

I agree with both of your comments. I have no qualms with this opinion as it truly speaks to the heart and soul of golf and the individual being at awe over the simple act of being outdoors, among pleasant company, etc....But the question at hand may be this: Do we at GCA embrace these qualities enough? Or are the prudish feelings among kept at hand too often — should our feelings of superiority in design and opinion be lightened more often that we allow?

[Lou_Duran]

Let's all be glad that the writer thinks as he does.  During a recent conversation with a PV member, he lamented the notoriety that his club has gained from the rankings, and the amount of play (or requests for access) that have resulted.  BTW, Scotsdale does have some outstanding courses, and there is nothing wrong with a homer trying to bring people his way.  And I doubt that the members of Baltusrol and PV would feel at all slighted.  BTW2, Desert Forest just north of Scotsdale is one of my favorites.  Perhaps a round there in a late afternoon was what inspired Mr. Waller to go a little heavy with his poetic license.

[Mike_Cirba]

I agree with Tim that Mr. Waller does not need to be enlightened, and I'm glad that he finds such greatness rather casually.

However, I'm not sure I'd ask Mr. Waller for his opinion on where to play next.  

[Forrest Richardson]

As clarification, the writer was John Davis of the local paper. Mr. Waller was a tourist interviewed in the article.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks for posting this Forest.

Unlike some of the others who have posted here, that I USED to feel were TRUE purists, they wouldn't let a comment like this get passed by.

Very disappointed in some of you. Very disappointed!:)


As far as Mr. Waller is concerned, Fat, Drunk, and Stupid is no way to go through life son. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

[Lou_Duran]

Tommy,

People are entitled to their opinions, and if you have a mission in life to educate the "uninformed", this is not done best by calling them names.  Under the best conditions, you will only save those who are marginally receptive, and we know from various discussions on this site that these are relatively few in number.  Does it really matter if a group believes that Greyhawk-Talon is in the class of a Pine Valley?  Certainly those who care about gca don't buy that garbage, but how many folks are even going to have the chance to experience PV except through a book?  I suspect that most of the PV members could care less, and if some golfers gain some pleasure from believing that their round was in a world-class course, who loses?

Please, do take care of yourself and well.  I am looking forward to personal introductions to Rustic Canyon and Apache Stronghold in the not too distant future.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy:

Was that directed at me......fat drunk and stupid?

Well, I think you are "biased"......you have that Southern California mentality that assumes one can always play golf. Mr Waller is from New York. He could have been from Philadelphia or Cleveland or Detroit or maybe even Montana where golf doesn't get as good as Scottsdale for several months out of the year.

Besides, why weep for Pine Valley? Do they have a shortage of players?

And, what, after all, are "purists" or "true purists"? Do they all live in LA?

You need a beer in Belmont Shore to straighten out!

[Steve_L.]

At least in Scottsdale his subject course probably didn't have a 30' waterfall, or an island green.  Some people are so caught up in how different and beautiful the desert is that they forget what Pine Valley or other great places are...  

I lived in Phoenix for 8 years and when I first visited Florida and saw the Ocean I swore it was the most beautiful place in the world.  I'm now over it and I've since come to my senses and have things in perspective...  

It's always a little misguided comparing completely different places.  Not neccesarily better or worse, just different...

[Tim_Weiman]

Steve L:

I don't know about just being "different" not "better".

Years ago I traveled from Cleveland down to Columbus because in February the golf in Columbus at 32 degrees WAS BETTER than the golf in Cleveland at 22 degrees.

I don't know when Mr Wallers played, but in February or March, golf in Scottsdale can be MUCH BETTER than Tommy's "purist" golf in New York.

Bottom line: there are times when you are just happy to get out and thinking about golf architecture doesn't have much to do with it. You are more prone to that living in a Northern city, but even when I lived in LA I felt that way plenty of times.

[Tim_Weiman]

Redanman:

I'm surprised you didn't ask this gentleman to explain his thinking. It can be very interesting when people express views well outside the mainstream, regardless of whether you agree.

Anyway, what makes you think people would never say a course is better than Pebble Beach? Does Pebble have qualities or a status that puts it beyond comparison?

[Tim_Weiman]

Redanman:

I guess you always have to be ready for the unexpected.

As far as being "better than Pebble Beach", I have had the experience of playing with some friends who enjoyed the links 9 at Pacific Grove more than Pebble......and these were all people playing Pebble on expense account!

[Mike_Sweeney]

 I had pleasant discusssions about golf and golf courses with this feller and I asked him about Galloway.  He looked right at me in all sincerity and told me and I quote  "It's better than Pine Valley."

.......

He really and truly believed it and it was scary.

He sounds more lucky than scary to me. He gets to play his home course, a course better than Pine Valley, anytime he wants. Thus he does not have to get on planes, drive long distances, spend lots of money, negotiate extended trips with his wife  ........ in order to receive golf nirvana everyday. He has it in his backyard.

I once played 9 holes with a NYC firefighter up at Pelham/Split Rock (NYC muni). We were talking about local courses, and when I asked him "if you could play any course in the area, which one would it be?" I was expecting the traditional TV courses such as Winged Foot, Westchester, BB or Shinnecock. He thought about it for a minute and without an ounce of sarcasm said, "This one, I really like this course." He is a lucky guy.

[Bill_McBride]

A problem with Arizona golf is that alll the tourists want pristine green and that means overwatering, with some exceptions.  "Firm and fast" is overridden by the need for "green and lush."  I even found Talking Stick North to be a bit softer than I would have liked, but what a fun course.   Apache Stronghold was definitely firm and fast.  But the Desert Mountain course I played that trip was definitely overwatered, at least IMHO.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike Sweeney:

I agree with you. The population of golf achitecture "students" is limited. For most people, finding joy in their local course is far more important.

The fellow you met may not be the guy to rely on to plan your next golf adventure, but deep down has something many people don't.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Sweeney;

It probably helps that the Split Rock course in the Bronx has a superb set of greens and a classic design that is really first-rate for a muni, unfortunately with the stereotypical poor conditioning.  

Geoffrey Childs is another who is rather enamored with it.

Your larger point is a good one, and as someone who grew up on dirt-tracks but had a blast and loved each one of them (well, almost all of them), I can certainly relate.  

However, it doesn't do the rest of us golf course nuts much in the way of useful info if everyone thinks their own course is world-class, first-rate, and heaven on earth.  

[JMD]

Seems to me that different courses work for different people.  When you play in Scottsdale for the first time, it's a little like being on the moon and that part of the experience makes the courses seem better than they are.  Indeed, if you look at their fate in the ratings, it seems the raters have just this experience. In any event, very few of us play those courses more than once a year and, as a direct consequence, we don't have a sense of their true character.  What makes PV or NGLA or Shinnecock great is that they are different and special each time we play them.  This is what makes their challenge timeless and their greatness evident.  Few desert courses reach that standard (Talking Stick North, Legend Trail, and Estancia maybe) -- I think that, for the most part, they grow less interesting on multiple trips.