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JNC Lyon

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Who said this??
« on: November 02, 2005, 04:31:35 PM »
"Great holes induce players to risk failure, to try the bold shot.  Great holes, therefore, will extract lots of bogies, but they may also yield lots of birdies."

« Last Edit: November 02, 2005, 04:31:51 PM by JNC_Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2005, 04:35:42 PM »
Guessing off the top of my head: Bobby Jones

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2005, 05:27:29 PM »
Stanley Thompson

Dave Kemp

Re:Who said this??
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2005, 07:13:35 PM »
Alister MacKenzie  ???
« Last Edit: November 02, 2005, 07:13:51 PM by Dave Kemp »

Brent Hutto

Re:Who said this??
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2005, 09:34:40 PM »
Ran Morrissett

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2005, 09:36:27 PM »
The first three were way off. The last one was quite a bit closer.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sean Leary

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Re:Who said this??
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2005, 09:47:56 PM »
Tom Doak..

Craig_Rokke

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Re:Who said this??
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2005, 10:04:34 PM »
Tillinghast

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2005, 10:11:29 PM »
"Great holes induce players to risk failure, to try the bold shot.  Great holes, therefore, will extract lots of bogies, but they may also yield lots of birdies."

I don't know who said it ... but:

Hasn't every good architect, ever, believed this?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2005, 05:41:34 AM »
Ben Crenshaw (or Tom Paul!)
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

ForkaB

Re:Who said this??
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2005, 06:09:45 AM »
Dan's right.  Every architect worth his or her salt has said (or believed) something similar.  Risk/Reward is not really a new concept after all.  Even in GCA!

Since the grammar and the thought processes are a bit dodgy, I'll go for Maxie Behr (even though there are far too few multisyllabic and superfluous words to make a positive identification....).

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2005, 08:33:19 AM »
I'll change something to that quote, a little nuance but an important one IMHO...

Great holes, therefore, will extract lots of bogies and worse, but they may also yield lots of birdies...

because if a hole only can extract bogeys, you fall into the hard par easy bogey category, and try to built ultra fair holes. All architects can say that it will extract bogeys...

Most Great holes all have a strong potential for disaster.

Cape hole, Road hole, 16th at Cypress, 13th at Augusta, you can name the others  

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2005, 09:15:46 PM »
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner! :D :o ;D

Matthew Mollica's second guess was right, it is Tom Paul. I did not quote this directly from GCA, but rather from my page-a-day golf calendar. This was the quote from November 2nd.  I just thought it was interesting that it cited him as TE Paul, so I am led to believe it might have been quoted directly off of the site???

This point has been made by many an architect, but how many put it into practice? Is it easy to put into practice?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2005, 08:13:12 AM »
The quote is the November 2 entry of a day calender I put together for Workman Press last year. It is available at most bookstores. I recommend it to the GCA crowd. It has 365 stunning photos of golf holes by Larry Lamprecht. I was charged with finding 365 daily quotations about golf. I tried to include as many architecturally sourced or oriented quotes as possible, so I think this crowd might find it more interesting than the usual golf calendar.  

My sales pitch: It's a great addition to your desk and makes for terrific client gifts. Buy many and buy them often.  ;D

The TEP quote was taken from one of the many threads that discussed the now famous TEP Conjecture a couple of years ago. I think the basic idea was originally Bill Coore's, filtered through TEP and others.

As noted in those threads of yesteryear, the notion is that a wide scoring spectrum is a sign of the effectiveness of the strategic options of a hole. It is a hypothesis that that can actually be tested. And when tested against scoring at the Masters and the Open, the theory does  pretty good job of identifying great strategic holes. It both confirms previous instincts about certain holes (the 13th at ANGC) and yields some surprises. For example, the 12th at TOC at this year's Open jumped off the chart when you run the TEP Conjecture numbers. That's not a hole that is usually ranked among the best at TOC. It should be.

Bob    

« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 09:06:12 AM by BCrosby »

ForkaB

Re:Who said this??
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2005, 08:17:58 AM »
Bob

I hope you are paying TEP royalties.  Our annual fund raising appeals to help get him out of that ramshackle farmhouse and into more secure and salubrious accommodation always seem to fall short.

Tom

We're thinking about you as winter approaches.  Do you still need matches to light our fires?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2005, 08:40:16 AM »
I have this calendar. The quote by T.E. Paul, golf architecture historian, is printed next to a picture of the 11th hole at Quaker Ridge.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re:Who said this??
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2005, 09:22:42 AM »
Who's responsible for that actual quote in the first post is interesting. As BobC said the idea or theory that quote tries to encapsulate began on this website a few years ago as I was trying of figure out if there was some score-based barometer of testing the effective strategic or multi-optional quality of golf holes.

It seemed to me the wider the scoring spectrum over a certain amount of time on a particular golf hole indicated  a higher degree of interest of the hole due to truly effective multi-optional strategies. The whole idea began to occur to me from the inverse--eg a narrow scoring spectrum over time indicated some real lack of strategic or multi-optional effectiveness and therefore lack of interest within the golf hole.

This wasn't something that just came to me out of the blue. It came to me over a period of time on one of the holes of my own course that had devolved over the years into one where the play of the hole (for most everyone) became very one-dimensional---in other words everyone seemed to be playing it their own same way day after day.

Then through research I found out that this particular hole had been redesigned by Perry Maxwell in the 1930s to mimic the shot values or "strategic concept" of ANGC's great "go-no go" short par 5 #13!.

But for reasons of simple neglect and misunderstanding of the strategic makeup of the hole most all its multi-optional strategies had been shut down to almost total non-function so the hole basically had to be played one-dimensionally day after day by most everyone. To me, anyway, this created a situation over time were the scoring spectrum became really narrow and the hole just became boring in my mind.

When we looked at Maxwell's "concept copy" of ANGC's #13 and what had happened to shut down some of the multi-options over the years we fixed it and, BOOM, the next year the hole was back to multi-dimensional in its effective strategies and its "scoring spectrum" dramatically widened to more eagles and birdies but also more bogies and "others".

So to me that was proof of the theory of the "scoring spectrum" as a barometer for the quality of a golf hole as to its effective multi-optional strategies and diverse temptations in function and in play.

Bob Crosby picked up on that and created a mathematical or statistical model to test the theory on certain holes and it seemed to match or reflect their perceived quality, or lack of it.

So then BobC did that calender and he asked me to submit a quote to encapsulate this "scoring spectrum" idea. Of course, being me, I completely exceeded the word limit for the calender so the actual wording of that quote is much more Bob Crosby's than mine. But the idea is the same.  ;)

« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 09:30:20 AM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:Who said this??
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2005, 09:26:11 AM »
Well done Tom and Bob

BTW, Tom

Exactly how many words were in the original quote?  I've got a few Benjies on the "over" in a 1000 words over/under wager.....

Thanks in advance

TEPaul

Re:Who said this??
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2005, 09:43:07 AM »
Rich:

I don't remember. All I remember is he gave me a word-count not to exceed and as hard as I tried I couldn't not exceed it so he wrote the quote himself.  ;)

But maybe my "word-count exceeding" quotation of the "scoring spectrum barometer" is on my word processor somewhere and if I can find the unedited version I'll post it for you to see how it played out against your "over and under".

I think it had a few too many of Max Behr's 'under the premises' qualifiers in it.  ;)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2005, 05:32:33 PM »
It came down to using TEP's pithy quote or an elegant, breath-taking quote from John Upike. My editor asked if Updike would want royalties. I said that he probably would insist.

So he went with Tom.

How does the old saying about making sausage go...?

Bob

 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 05:44:31 PM by BCrosby »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this??
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2005, 06:40:52 PM »
How does the old saying about making sausage go...?

"The less people know about how sausages and laws are made, the better they'll sleep at night" -- variously attributed to either Otto von Bismarck or Thomas E. Paul
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 06:58:58 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016