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mike_malone

. Turning the hole or not? Preference?
« on: Yesterday at 04:46:36 PM »
I imagine a straight hole provides more choices for design. But dogleg holes provide a challenge off the tee that runs  many more yards which is its own allure.


Doglegs can attract shots near to or over trouble to gain an advantage whereas a straight hole usually just collects bad shots into penal areas.









Of course there is the mildly turning hole which may be the best of both worlds.








Changed the title to “ turning the hole” to allow for slight changes.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:48:07 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

Re: Dogleg versus straight. Your preference to design?
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 05:10:00 PM »
I generally prefer a hole that's straight enough that you can see the flag from the tee.  Partly that is the photographer in me.


Beyond that, I would rather the fairway twist a bit to the left or right so that there is some tension between the SHORTEST line and the BEST line.

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Dogleg versus straight. Your preference to design?
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 05:35:49 PM »
Doglegs allow the architect to control the distance off the tee, this allows for more interesting tee shots, especially in match play where the architect can neuter the bomb-and-gouge player's tactical advantage.

Functionally, I do think the binary of "dogleg" and "straight" is problematic, in that there are wildly different types of "straight" holes and "dogleg" holes. E.g. many "dogleg" holes allow players to cut the corner, acting as an optional forced carry rather than a true dogleg.

In the end Wethered and Simpson convinced me long ago that the dogleg is generally superior when players are concerned with strategy. The idea is whether or not you realize there is a dogleg on the hole you're playing:

Is the example on the right a dogleg? Is the road hole a dogleg?

Thomas Dai

Re: Dogleg versus straight. Your preference to design?
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 05:39:27 PM »
What about holes that arc gradually?
Atb

mike_malone

Re: Dogleg versus straight. Your preference to design?
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 08:44:12 PM »
What about holes that arc gradually?
Atb


I spoke to that at the end of my initial post. Number two at Rolling Green is a great subtle turn from right to left. It’s not really a dogleg but the ground slopes from left to right to make it harder to hit on the right side of the fairway. There is also a left bunker complex that is more visual than penal for most but it does play on the mind.


There is rough left but the hole can be played straight from the tee to the green. But the best line is from the center and right fairway   


Of course the green is angled and sloped left to right to create menace for shots from the left.


The slight jog makes for interesting design.
AKA Mayday

Simon Barrington

Re: . Turning the hole or not? Preference?
« Reply #5 on: Today at 05:35:18 AM »
Both John Henry Taylor and James Braid are occasionally cited as "The Inventor of the Dog-Leg", this of course is not true.

Today we celebrate James Braid's 155th Birthday, and what may not be so widely known (even on here) is that James Braid might reasonably be considered the "inventor", or at least "innovator", of the Dog-Leg on a Straight Hole.

In "Advanced Golf" published in 1908, Braid takes great care to detail why Diagonal Bunkering on an ostensibly straight hole is a huge strategic improvement and creates an effective "Dog-Leg".

As "Golfing" said in their review of his seminal (and under-appreciated) book which has two very detailed chapters on Golf Architecture which I recommend (largely and sadly these tend not on the "syllabus" for many in our sphere of interest):

“Simply and straightforwardly written, Champion Braid’s book contains more solid and useful information to the square inch than you will find in nine out of ten treatises on golf brought out at a higher price. Though Braid himself would probably be the first man to disclaim any literary style for his little effort, the style is there, nevertheless, direct, honest, and to the point, like the game of golf played by the man who wrote it.”

Here are James Braid wise words on the strategic use and purpose of diagonal bunkering:
"THE DIAGONAL BUNKER

Let me now say a few words about a form of bunker that is too seldom used as an alternative to the usual straight bunker, either of the raised bank or sunk pattern, going straight across the course and intended to be carried with the tee of second shot.

This latter bunker has the disadvantage that a ball that may be off the line may be short of it, while one of the same length that is straight may find it, which is not proper justice. Besides this, it offers no temptation to a short player who feels that he cannot carry it.

The alternative bunker that I recommend catches the short and crooked ball, and gives the better chance of being let off to the ball that is short but straight, while at the same time it offers distinct temptation to the short drivers.

It is a bunker constructed on either a single or double diagonal pattern.

Everybody knows what are the distinguishing and excellent qualities of a good dog-legged hole.

The player has a carry to make from the tee over a hazard that runs at an angle to the straight line to the hole, and he can choose his own length of carry.

If he can drive far and will take risks, he goes over the farthest point-straightest for the hole; and if he makes a good shot he is much nearer to the hole than he would have been if he had taken the short carry, and ought then to be given a good or even easy chance of getting on to the green in comfort with his next stroke.

On the other hand, the short driver may take an easy carry, but he will then probably be out of range of the green.

The good qualities of this type of hazard are apparent, and they may easily be applied to made bunkers at straight holes.

The bunker that has to be carried is simply placed diagonally across the course instead of straight, and it makes no difference whether it is a sunk bunker, a line of pots, or a bank.

In the case of the single diagonal you place one bunker--or line of pots--at an angle of about forty-five degrees across the course, the end nearer to the tee reaching the edge of the fairway, while the other end extends just a little beyond the middle of the course.

Therefore the player who can drive well and wants to take the short cut to the hole goes for the long carry over the middle, while another man, who is a short driver or is afraid, can play over to the right or left as the case may be.

I think it would generally be best to let the near end of the bunker be on the right, as shown in the diagram I have drawn (p. 269), so the player would be induced to make his shot in that direction. This would give him less chance of escape if he sliced--slicing being more frequent than pulling — than he would have if the far end of the bunker were on the right.

But note that the man who does thus take the short carry is losing extra distance by departing so much from the straight line, and also that he stands a very fair chance of going into the rough if he is not careful, while the bunkers in the neighbourhood of the green will be so arranged that his next shot will be considerably more difficult than it would have been if he had kept straight.

Thus, while the short driver is quite as well accommodated as he has any right to expect, the bunker is distinctly one that encourages him and makes him try to improve his length.

This is the single diagonal, and as the far end of it will be, as stated, very little beyond the middle of the course (it would clearly be no use continuing it to the other side, giving an impossible carry on that side, or, on the other hand, leaving a free space for the short driver there), the course must be protected at that end by a good-sized pot bunker to prevent the ball that runs in that direction from getting round it, or otherwise going free.

The diagram on p. 269 illustrating a method of bunkering a short hole, chiefly with a diagonal, shows the situation exactly."


He goes on to detail a further extension of these thoughts by discussing Double Diagonal Bunkering (both combinations, / \ and \ /)

What should be abundantly clear from the passage above is that James Braid absolutely understood and agreed with "Strategic" principles (that his good friend J.H. Taylor argued fervently against) and in my view he was a key "Bridge" between the Strategic and Penal Schools.

Braid should not be bracketed when reading passages from the ardent strategists which mention "Professionals" as not designing any courses of merit, sometimes pejoratively, but interestingly Braid's name is largely (or completely) absent in such discussions/writings.

Happy Birthday Jimmy!
« Last Edit: Today at 06:01:21 AM by Simon Barrington »

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