[Mike Hendren]

Are most on the far side of water hazards original or a subsequent construct?  Regardless, who’s their daddy?

[Tommy Williamsen]

There are probably others, but offhand, I would say ANGC. 12,13,15.

[Rob Marshall]

Based on the history of mower heights I would hazard to guess they were subsequent construction.

[Mark_Fine]

Severely shaved banks (as we have today) evolved.  Mower heights during the Golden Age is just one tipoff.  That doesn’t mean architects didn’t have roll offs toward water.  It just means the ball didn’t roll nearly as far as it does today. 

[Tom_Doak]

Severely shaved banks (as we have today) evolved.  Mower heights during the Golden Age is just one tipoff.  That doesn’t mean architects didn’t have roll offs toward water.  It just means the ball didn’t roll nearly as far as it does today.

Do you know an example of where an older course featured a roll off toward water?  I can't think of any that I saw in making my early tours of golf courses.


My response to Ira was going to be that the Flymo was invented in the 1960's, but the first time I saw it used to encourage golf balls to roll back into the water was on the 15th at Augusta, sometime in the late 70s or maybe even the early 80s.


In the late 1980s, David Ever started recommending "chipping areas" around greens at fairway height for various USGA events, and in the 1990s, some of those short-grass areas were added to bring a water hazard more into play.  I think Mike Davis was one of the main proponents of that.  The one he added behind one of the greens at Torrey Pines [so a ball that went over the green would go down into the canyon] was particularly daring, or egregious, depending on your personal opinion of them.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Well we just saw two at Lancaster that roll off toward the water - #6 and #12.


Another famous one that you will recall is the right side of #16 at Pine Valley. 

Yet another pretty famous one is the right from of #11 at Merion just to pick a few. 


The roll offs might not be that severe but at today’s green speeds/mowing cuts, easy to putt the ball in the water on all these holes. 


I am not in my office but I could probably go through my notes on courses and list other/better examples. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
Well we just saw two at Lancaster that roll off toward the water - #6 and #12.


Another famous one that you will recall is the right side of #16 at Pine Valley. 

Yet another pretty famous one is the right from of #11 at Merion just to pick a few. 


The roll offs might not be that severe but at today’s green speeds/mowing cuts easy to putt the ball in the water on all these holes.

Were any of those mowed tight down to fairway height back in the day?


The 11th at Merion has had a retaining wall at the edge of the green since the first time I saw it.  The 16th at Pine Valley was at rough height between the green and the pond, like every other such hole in the world.  The 12th at Lancaster definitely wasn't mowed to fairway height between the green and the water; I'd have to check my old slides regarding the 6th.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I highly doubt that any of them were mowed tight toward the water.  I believe that was likely a result on modern maintenance practices,…


Unfortunately, Lehigh is looking at doing something similar to our 11th hole.  The plan is to tightly mow the grass all around the green including down to the hazard in front.  Big mistake in my mind.  Will totally change the look as well as the playing characteristics of the hole and not for the better.  Good example of how things change over time I guess. 


FYI - I good friend of mine who is a member at Merion just told me that 11th green was raised about a foot to prevent flooding.  He said it was inches from going under water on the Monday before the 2013 Open.  Not sure if any of the contours were altered when this was done?? 

[Thomas Dai]

‘Controlled’ burning of the grass on the banks of streams, or in some cases likely the uncontrolled burning (!!) was in times gone bye used at some courses. Wonder if it still is? And at some places nibbling animals would be involved. Men using sythes etc as well. Physically hard work too often with the possibility of an encounter with some nasty critter or beastie in the grass or in the water.
Different times these days though. Different equipment available and different expectations too.
Atb

[Pete_Pittock]

The banks of the burns at Turnberry are indelibly etched in my memory (49 years ago).

[Ronald Montesano]

Shaved Banks is my MC name, when I perform...

[Joe Hancock]

Shaved Banks is my MC name, when I perform...

I was trying to manufacture a “Shavings and Loan” joke…..

[Joe Hancock]

Jack just said “I hate shaved banks…” so, there ya go.


In context, he also said he doesn’t mind a ball that hits the bank bounding into water, but a ball that hits the greens and spins off shouldn’t go in the water.

[Sean_A]

Jack just said “I hate shaved banks…” so, there ya go.

In context, he also said he doesn’t mind a ball that hits the bank bounding into water, but a ball that hits the greens and spins off shouldn’t go in the water.

Spinning is either an equipment issue or a player issue. It’s not a course issue.

If it’s Augusta I expect shaved banks. If it’s John Q Public muni I don’t expect shaved banks. Neither is right or better. Although my preference is for the grass to be short (not modern style shaved) and firm enough to make the water ball likely in high season. Sheep eaten height is my ideal.

Ciao

[Tony Ristola]

Severely shaved banks (as we have today) evolved.  Mower heights during the Golden Age is just one tipoff.  That doesn’t mean architects didn’t have roll offs toward water.  It just means the ball didn’t roll nearly as far as it does today.

Do you know an example of where an older course featured a roll off toward water?  I can't think of any that I saw in making my early tours of golf courses.


My response to Ira was going to be that the Flymo was invented in the 1960's, but the first time I saw it used to encourage golf balls to roll back into the water was on the 15th at Augusta, sometime in the late 70s or maybe even the early 80s.


In the late 1980s, David Ever started recommending "chipping areas" around greens at fairway height for various USGA events, and in the 1990s, some of those short-grass areas were added to bring a water hazard more into play.  I think Mike Davis was one of the main proponents of that.  The one he added behind one of the greens at Torrey Pines [so a ball that went over the green would go down into the canyon] was particularly daring, or egregious, depending on your personal opinion of them.

Charles Price wrote about guys putting off the green and into the water hazard on Augusta's 13 prior to 1960 (Evil Greens, 1980, Golf Magazine), but seeing some of the old B&W photos from that era, the bunkers and other parts of the course looked pretty hairy when compared to the 70's and 80's. He didn't write that the ball found the depths of the water hazard, but were putted into it. Perhaps the putts hung up in the bank.

[Jim_Coleman]

    Shaved Banks? Sounds like a porn name.

[Wayne_Kozun]

This came up during the Memorial broadcast on Saturday when Nicklaus was in the booth and Jack said that he hates shaved banks and for that reason they don't have them at Muirfield Village.

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