Players To Be Paid For Ryder Cup Participation

[David Cronan]

The masses want what they want, and there certainly seems to be no shortage of demand or people willing to spend big $$$ even if its just a meaningless exhibition. So pay em, don't pay em...who cares none of em are hurting for cash otherwise.

I put it in a similar category as the upcoming farcical Tyson/Paul fight.

I have to disagree, that is if you’re comparing the two events.


For the most part, the RC is comprised of players who have excelled at the top of their sport over the preceding two years.


The “fight” you reference is of a TicTok “star” and a 57 year old convicted rapist. I would compare this event to a professional wrestling match.


About the only thing they do have in common is that all participants, in both the RC and the boxing match, would destroy any one of us on GCA.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Eric there are a myriad of ways to distribute tickets. Lottery, stand in line at XYZ golf courses, first tee giveaways for 1 child/adult. That is the way to level the playing field.  Heck, isn't grow the game in your mission statement even?  Therein lies why it is incumbent upon the PGA to not sell out their marquee event to the rich.

Geoff , I didn't really talk about "ways to distribute tickets." I simply made the simple economic point that they sold out, so economics says they could have and potentially even should have sold the tickets for more than $750. And if they had sold the tickets for less, you'd simply find profiteers buying them up for resale on the secondary market. I'd much rather the PGA get that money than the secondary market sellers.

They'll give some tickets away, I'm sure, but I disagree that it's incumbent upon them to not make as much money as they can within reason.

Particularly when they can take that money to then grow the game — I don't think offering some kids who can't afford to play golf as often as they'd like $250 tickets will do much to grow the game more than Youth on Course or the First Tee or PGA Junior League or a bunch of other things.

[Kalen Braley]

The masses want what they want, and there certainly seems to be no shortage of demand or people willing to spend big $$$ even if its just a meaningless exhibition. So pay em, don't pay em...who cares none of em are hurting for cash otherwise.

I put it in a similar category as the upcoming farcical Tyson/Paul fight.

For the most part, the RC is comprised of players who have excelled at the top of their sport over the preceding two years.

Indeed,


Perhaps the better comparison is to an All Star game or silly season golf event.


To boot, its xenophobic nature has always been one of its lesser qualities IMO

[Rob Marshall]

The PGA of America could have made the tickets non transferable to stop the secondary market. I’d love to know what they do with the money. I know a lot of PGA professionals who would like to know the same thing.


The first tee program was started by Tim Finchem and partnered with other golf associations including the PGA of America, USGA and others.

[Simon Barrington]

I know there is a divergence of opinion on this subject so I’m wondering if there is a consensus in the discussion group? I read an interesting quote from Rory McIlroy saying he’d “pay for the privilege to play in the event.”

The consensus is clearly split down mostly national (continental) lines.

The Europeans have held onto the originating spirit of the Matches far longer than the Americans.

What is notable is that the spirit emanated from the US originally.

Firstly, Walter Hagen paid out of his own pocket to help with expenses for the US group of players who played in the (pre-Ryder Cup) Match at Wentworth in 1926. Like Rory, they so wished to play, even at their own cost.

Then in 1929, following the victory of the US Team at Worcester, Mass. in the 1st Ryder Cup Matches (1927) there were insufficient funds left in the American Ryder Cup Fund (only c.$2000) to be able to send the 10-man US Team to defend the Cup at Moortown GC in Leeds.

The fledgling PGA of America appealed to its members to assist. Charlie Burgess, a Scot from Montrose who on the bidding of Alex Findlay travelled to the US to be Professional at the Woodland GC, Newton, Mass. stepped up.

He organised a star-studded Exhibition Match at the Woodland GC.
Francis Ouimet was Referee, Burgess was Grand Marshall.
Walter Hagen and Gene Sarazen played a 36-Hole Matchplay versus the then US Open Champion, Johnny Farrell and the incomparable sensation that was Bobby Jones.

That Jones, as an Amateur of his profile, would support this effort so graciously was deeply appreciated by the Professionals, and his presence grew the gate significantly.

Hagen & Sarazen prevailed on the last green, Jones just missing the final putt.

Burgess and the (previously rebel) New England Professional Golf Organisation - NEPGO, gave the largest donations to the fund, the day itself raised over $10,000 and ensured the future of the Matches, and caused others to also donate. Burgess has been said to be the man who saved the Ryder Cup, which has some credibility.

So the spirit should and could move forward, but times have changed and it is not in our behest to determine this.

Personally, if I may take a view, think that it would be a shame to lose the original spirit of what at its core is a simple set of Matchplay Challenge Matches, but the event/circus is so huge now I understand (but do not agree with) the contrary view.

For full disclosure, I have a strong relationship with the event, even having slept with the Ryder Cup Trophy securely stored under my bed on several occasions (but that’s a story for another day)…

Cheers

[Carl Johnson]

I'd say pay'em.  They are professional entertainers and deserve it.

[Chris Hughes]

Agreed Carl.




Why wouldn't they pay each of the players $1,500,000 each?


Were they to do so literally nothing would change...


...except the "pay" controversy that is -- which would go away entirely.

[Pierre_C]

2024 PGA season will have more than $400M in prize money and payout. The average purse for a PGA event is $8M and the winner takes home around $1.7M. Procore Championship had the lowest winner prize money: $1,080,000.

Regardless, any American playing in the RC has won or at least finished within the top 10 in multiple events. If you rank American players by annual PGA earnings, the lowest earnings would be at least $7M.


I don't have any skin in the game, so if players want to be paid then it's a reflection on the individual player.

[Chris Hughes]

2024 PGA season will have more than $400M in prize money and payout. The average purse for a PGA event is $8M and the winner takes home around $1.7M. Procore Championship had the lowest winner prize money: $1,080,000.

Regardless, any American playing in the RC has won or at least finished within the top 10 in multiple events. If you rank American players by annual PGA earnings, the lowest earnings would be at least $7M.


I don't have any skin in the game, so if players want to be paid then it's a reflection on the individual player.

The PGA of America (owner of Ryder Cup) and the PGA Tour (in no way participates in Ryder Cup) are entirely unrelated, and completely distinct organizations.


Why should PGA Tour players work for the PGA of America for free?

[Simon Barrington]

"The PGA of America (owner of Ryder Cup) and the PGA Tour (in no way participates in Ryder Cup) are entirely unrelated, and completely distinct organizations.

Why should PGA Tour players work for the PGA of America for free?"

If the players of the past had taken that view then there would be no PGA Tour, and no Ryder Cup at all.

Yes the organisations are now separate, but the clue is in the name. They were not always.

Moreover when the organisations split (on both sides of the Pond) neither of the "Tours" wished to run and fund the then loss-making Ryder Cup event. They had the opportunity to be involved in ownership and chose otherwise. They dropped it like a stone.

How times change (especially when money is involved).

If Hagen, Jones, Nicklaus, Ballesteros and so many other giants upon which the modern day Tour Professionals stand on the shoulders of had acted similarly then they would not have the opportunities and wealth they have today...it is a responsibility not of the now but of what has gone before as well...

Yes, of course I accept they wish to be paid for their time, but perhaps for just one week every two years they could do themselves, their reputation and the game even better.

Honestly, these players do not need the money, but the grass roots do. How many times do we here on here and on various associated podcasts discuss the need for well designed public golf often in City Centre short formats...If both sides could get behind that with their "donations" and more people can be happy an the game be in a better place too.

Lastly, name any US PGA Tour Pro who has not had a PGA of America Coach or mentor to get them where they are today, these players (& their avaricious Agents) have incredibly short memories.
(The PGA Benevolvent Fund was set up c. 1901 in the UK to address the economic hardship some have later in life)

Cheers

(Disclaimer: I am a former employee of the UK PGA)

[Rob Marshall]

If all the profits went to charity or were used to “grow the game” I would get it. They are working pro bono. Let’s see an accounting from the PGA of America as to where the money goes.


“(The PGA Benevolvent Fund was set up c. 1901 in the UK to address the economic hardship some have later in life)”

Does the PGA of America have such a fund? I would hope so…

[Michael Morandi]

I know there is a divergence of opinion on this subject so I’m wondering if there is a consensus in the discussion group? I read an interesting quote from Rory McIlroy saying he’d “pay for the privilege to play in the event.”

I’m sure their endorsement contracts include bonuses for making the Ryder Cup so in that respect they do get paid.

[Chris Hughes]

I know there is a divergence of opinion on this subject so I’m wondering if there is a consensus in the discussion group? I read an interesting quote from Rory McIlroy saying he’d “pay for the privilege to play in the event.”

The consensus is clearly split down mostly national (continental) lines.

The Europeans have held onto the originating spirit of the Matches far longer than the Americans.

What is notable is that the spirit emanated from the US originally.

Firstly, Walter Hagen paid out of his own pocket to help with expenses for the US group of players who played in the (pre-Ryder Cup) Match at Wentworth in 1926. Like Rory, they so wished to play, even at their own cost.

Then in 1929, following the victory of the US Team at Worcester, Mass. in the 1st Ryder Cup Matches (1927) there were insufficient funds left in the American Ryder Cup Fund (only c.$2000) to be able to send the 10-man US Team to defend the Cup at Moortown GC in Leeds.

The fledgling PGA of America appealed to its members to assist. Charlie Burgess, a Scot from Montrose who on the bidding of Alex Findlay travelled to the US to be Professional at the Woodland GC, Newton, Mass. stepped up.

He organised a star-studded Exhibition Match at the Woodland GC.
Francis Ouimet was Referee, Burgess was Grand Marshall.
Walter Hagen and Gene Sarazen played a 36-Hole Matchplay versus the then US Open Champion, Johnny Farrell and the incomparable sensation that was Bobby Jones.

That Jones, as an Amateur of his profile, would support this effort so graciously was deeply appreciated by the Professionals, and his presence grew the gate significantly.

Hagen & Sarazen prevailed on the last green, Jones just missing the final putt.

Burgess and the (previously rebel) New England Professional Golf Organisation - NEPGO, gave the largest donations to the fund, the day itself raised over $10,000 and ensured the future of the Matches, and caused others to also donate. Burgess has been said to be the man who saved the Ryder Cup, which has some credibility.

So the spirit should and could move forward, but times have changed and it is not in our behest to determine this.

Personally, if I may take a view, think that it would be a shame to lose the original spirit of what at its core is a simple set of Matchplay Challenge Matches, but the event/circus is so huge now I understand (but do not agree with) the contrary view.

For full disclosure, I have a strong relationship with the event, even having slept with the Ryder Cup Trophy securely stored under my bed on several occasions (but that’s a story for another day)…

Cheers

Yeah, I'm a buyer of little to none of that rationale.


Heck, by your logic Seth Waugh should have been working for free!


Ryder Cup turned out to be a massive financial boon to European Tour but it's completely irrelevant to the PGA Tour.


Charles Howell has clipped over $42M of career earnings on the PGA Tour and never came close to sniffing a Ryder Cup spot.


From what I can tell Seth Waugh's $3,187,600 of compensation in 2022 approached the totality of charitable giving of the PGA of America in 2022, this despite a top-line revenue number of $130,000,000.

[Chris Hughes]

If all the profits went to charity or were used to “grow the game” I would get it. They are working pro bono. Let’s see an accounting from the PGA of America as to where the money goes.

2022:  Appears to be $130M revenue-in, a bit less than $4M out to charity.  "CEO" was paid about $3.2M


“(The PGA Benevolvent Fund was set up c. 1901 in the UK to address the economic hardship some have later in life)”Does the PGA of America have such a fund? I would hope so…

Yes.  In 2022 had ~$8,000,000 of cash/investments and distributed $399,000, all for "scholarships".

[Simon Barrington]

"Yeah, I'm a buyer of little to none of that rationale.
Heck, by your logic Seth Waugh should have been working for free!
....
From what I can tell Seth Waugh's $3,187,600 of compensation in 2022 approached the totality of charitable giving of the PGA of America in 2022, this despite a top-line revenue number of $130,000,000."

I respectfully differ, but sorry to say the logic of what I said does not imply that at all.

At most it implies anyone involved including Seth Waugh (of who I have never met and had to look up who he was as you mentioned him so positively!) might work for one week in every two years for free...less than 1% of his/their time, as it would be for the Players if they did so.

1% is considerably below the % of Charitable giving you argue is insufficient for the PGA of America (c.2.5%).
So not much to ask anyone, including the Players.

I for one would happily work for free at the event, as would many others it seems.
The PGA of America are charging volunteers for the privilege (incl. their kit, lunch, access etc.) to the tune of $400 each.
By the basic laws of supply & demand, which you clearly favour for the (hardly impoverished) players, the sell out of this option is a good thing.

$130m Annual Revenue is actually not an enormous amount for an organisation/company with over 5,000 staff (all servicing the game, but of course you can argue as is your right if you wish, this may be spent/done better) and that services some 30,000 current professionals.
i.e. this equates to only $26,000/employee and $4,333/member

$8m in the endowment is not that large for the number of retirees potentially in need of assistance now and going forward, and is diminimus to the $100m Fedex Bonus Pool on Tour for those same small group of players.

The context is stark.

I guess from your replies I won't convince you, but that's cool too.

See you Bethpage! I'll be there...

[MKrohn]

I have largely lost interest in professional golf in 'Merica however if Cantlay and his ilk want to be paid, make it that all money goes to the winners

[Erik J. Barzeski]

At most it implies anyone involved including Seth Waugh (of who I have never met and had to look up who he was as you mentioned him so positively!) might work for one week in every two years for free...less than 1% of his/their time, as it would be for the Players if they did so.

They work outside of that one week, and you really had to look up who Seth Waugh was? 

I for one would happily work for free at the event, as would many others it seems.
The PGA of America are charging volunteers for the privilege (incl. their kit, lunch, access etc.) to the tune of $400 each.

That's more about accountability, scheduling, etc. Always has been. The PGA Tour does it, the USGA does it, etc. It's the way that works best.

[Simon Barrington]

"They work outside of that one week, and you really had to look up who Seth Waugh was?"


Hello Erik

I am very aware they work in other weeks.

Yes, that is true. I had no idea who he was, Chris introduced his name into the issue.
IMHO it makes no difference to who is CEO, as the debate (original question posted) was about the US Players asking to receive payment.

FYI - I haven't been involved in Golf Administration for many years now, and certainly not in the US.
I only added that note to prove I have no skin in the game on this, nor am I trying to be a PGA of America apologist.

I am trying to look & inform/educate historically as dispassionately as I can to get a balanced debate. That I thought was the spirit on here?

Hence my previous disclaimers, as I do have past direct connections to both the PGA (UK) & the Ryder Cup Matches themselves (as part of the Rules Team), which of course informs my view.
As such I feel it best to declare that (where relevant) and hopefully my knowledge is useful for others to become aware of history they may not previously have been aware of.

Cheers!

[Chris Hughes]

I for one would happily work for free at the event, as would many others it seems.

Not relevant but a prime example of the "I know what's best for you better than you know what's best for you" straight from the playbook of the, well...

$130m Annual Revenue is actually not an enormous amount for an organisation/company with over 5,000 staff...

5,000?  I think you are off by a factor of over 4x there.

$8m in the endowment is not that large for the number of retirees potentially in need of assistance now and going forward, and is diminimus to the $100m Fedex Bonus Pool on Tour for those same small group of players.

Again, not relevant.

I guess from your replies I won't convince you, but that's cool too.

Very unlikely... 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I am very aware they work in other weeks.

Just suggesting your 1% is inaccurate. And that if you don't know who Seth Waugh is, you're not super current on the current golf landscape.

[Simon Barrington]

I am very aware they work in other weeks.

Just suggesting your 1% is inaccurate. And that if you don't know who Seth Waugh is, you're not super current on the current golf landscape.

1 week in 104 weeks (2 Years) is approx. 1%?

By my admission, Yes.

But, as per a previous reply it doesn't really matter to the question posed originally who is in that role (i.e. Should US Players be paid?).

[Simon Barrington]

I know there is a divergence of opinion on this subject so I’m wondering if there is a consensus in the discussion group? I read an interesting quote from Rory McIlroy saying he’d “pay for the privilege to play in the event.”

I’m sure their endorsement contracts include bonuses for making the Ryder Cup so in that respect they do get paid.

True

[Simon Barrington]

Are they paying the Americans - but not the Europeans?
Doesn't seem right if it's true.

Mike-The Europeans have said that they don’t want to be paid.

Good for them - it's not as though any of them need the money.

Words of wisdom from a neutral party

[Simon Barrington]

I for one would happily work for free at the event, as would many others it seems.

Not relevant but a prime example of the "I know what's best for you better than you know what's best for you" straight from the playbook of the, well...

I really have no idea what you are on about here...? Weird...

But, let's get back to the debate in question.

You, and many others, clearly stated that it was wrong to suggest US Players work for free at the event.

That is fine with me, I just take the other view, respectfully.

Many over here, including pretty much every European Ryder Cup Player who has been reported on so far, also take that contrary view.

I and evidently many others are prepared to work for free at the Event in the historic spirit of the Matches (This year the US Volunteers going further and paying $400 for the privilege) that is entirely relevant.


$130m Annual Revenue is actually not an enormous amount for an organisation/company with over 5,000 staff...

5,000?  I think you are off by a factor of over 4x there.

Thanks & my apologies
The reference I used was poorly written/phrased and having now reviewed it this was the reported number of people working for the PGA Tour (and now I doubt that accuracy, of course), and not the PGA of America.

That factor of scale (if it is accurate) is itself somewhat informative, regardless I don't think it is in any doubt that the PGA of America is very small compared to its more wealthy offspring. Which is also relevant context.


$8m in the endowment is not that large for the number of retirees potentially in need of assistance now and going forward, and is diminimus to the $100m Fedex Bonus Pool on Tour for those same small group of players.

Again, not relevant.

It is highly relevant for the PGA of America to be able to fund such schemes (Pension, Benevolent, Hardship etc.) after operational costs. That may even be a requirement of their Non-for-Profit status?

The Ryder Cup and the PGA Championship are effectively their sole sources of significant funding (with associated advertising etc.). $4.8mln of reported US Player Fees ($400k x12) would make such a huge difference if pointed in this direction instead, in part or full. It would be an impressive gesture that the game and history would rightly praise.
That would raise the marketability of these Players, perhaps even more than the amount they are foregoing.

But you were suggesting in a previous response 4x that amount should go to the US Players, c.$1.6mln each.

If the event makes revenue of say $100mln and has a reasonable c.20% Profit Margin then the 12x US Players will take almost ALL the profit generated and leave the PGA of America with absolutely no additional funding (ex-PGA Championship)...how is that good for the game?


I guess from your replies I won't convince you, but that's cool too.

Very unlikely...   


I got that one right then!...

On that tiny positive, I will leave this "OT" thread alone now...onward


Cheers!

[Chris Hughes]

When a Weekly Grounds badge equivalent = $3,183 all the altruistic arguments are obliterated -- every man for himself!


As for the UK/Euro players, I don't think that Tour can afford to pay them anyway!!