[James Reader]

I grew up playing Sherwood Forest and have been a member for over 40 years, so have a very deep affection for the course. Over the last few years the club has been making more and more of its Colt connection but it’s very clear that what is there today owes an awful lot more to Braid, who reworked the course in the late 1920s.

James


Do you think that's really true about there being more Braid than Colt left in the course ? It seems to me the bones of the course are as laid down by Colt.


Niall

Actually I’ve always been a bit dubious as to just how much involvement Colt had in the original design. The only references to his input I’m aware of suggest he acted in an advisory capacity, expressing a view that “the soil and natural features of the land are eminently suitable for the construction of a really good golf course” and “approving the holes as laid out”. If you consider what the initial version of the course looked like, there are a number of aspects that don’t scream Colt to me.


The first seven holes pretty much followed today’s routing, but the 4th green was in a hollow short of its current position (it was later moved back up the slope because of drainage problems) and the 7th green was what is today’s left-hand ‘winter green’ (which has little to commend it). The current main green on the 7th is Braid’s work.


It’s from there on that Braid made the most significant changes. He shifted the 8th and 9th to the left of their original positions and lengthened both holes. The next four holes are entirely new by Braid - replacing five originals measuring 165, 277, 290, 293 and 328 yards with ones of 195, 457, 433 and 448. He then effectively split what must have been a monster 575-yard bogey 6 into a par 4 and par 3, shifted the 16th green back and to the right to create a much longer par 5, and pushed the 17th tee back 130 yards. A new tee on the 18th added some more length.


With the exception of a few new back tees and changes to bunkers, today’s course is substantially as Braid left it nearly 100 years ago and everything from the 7th tee to the 17th green is definitely his work (with the possible exception of the 15th green). I think it’s reasonable to assume he also made some changes to at least some of the other holes as well, beyond just pushing some tees back, which we know he did.


So there is definitely a lot of Braid there, the question is how much is Colt.


I’d be really interested in others’ views on this, especially Adam, but would Colt really have designed a par 3 looking like today’s winter 7th? And would he really have routed holes 11 to 17 (on a huge piece of land) measuring 277, 290, 293, 328, 575, 435 and 235 yards? It just seems a bit unlikely to me.


There’s absolutely no evidence for this but if I was told that Colt designed a 9-hole course comprising the “inner 9” of 1-6 and 16-18 and then someone else added on the original 7-15 to extend it to 18, I’d actually find that more believable.

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't know Sherwood, but my research too suggests his role there was limited.

[Simon Barrington]

Re. Colt & Braid at Sherwood Forest:

Ref: Divine Fury of James Braid - Payne
Both Colt & Tom Williamson were asked to pronunce on the site's suitability for golf c. 1911, they did so positively
The original course was laid out by Frank Mason, Pro at Seacroft, who "collaborated" with Colt on using some of the best land features and 18 holes (c.6200yds) eventually opened in 1913
1924 Braid called in to remodel the course to increase length and challenge. He was paid £14-0-0 and expenses of £4-14-0 in July 1924.
(for comparison he charged that year c.£20 for an original course, so the work was clearly extensive)

Ref: 400 Course of James Braid - Moreton
1924 Braid called in "to remodel Colt's original 1912 design" (Note - a slight contradiction or difference in emphasis to above).
Braid used the first 7 holes of the original layout
He changed the playing lines on 8 & 9 adding 50 & 30yds respectively.
The original inward 9 had four holes under 300yds and one long hole of 575yds.
Braid re-used the similar playing corridors to create a longer & better balance of 3x long Bogey 5s, and 2 short-holes.

The above and the linked detailed Club Report that James kindly sent in an earlier reply (https://www.sherwoodforestgolfclub.co.uk/uploads/sherwoodforest/File/CHAPTER%205%20(part%201%20and%202).pdf) make me think there is a weight towards Braid vs. the original course, in terms of the "bones' that remain now.
Also that the original may not have been as much Colt as thought (as per Adam's reply, and the Frank Mason laying out the course reference above).

I hope to explore with James sometime soon, to see what is on the ground.

Braid was known for his remodels, and when he did so he would try to respect what went before and would often assimilate the existing bunker style etc. to fit what was best on the site. But his strategic cues are well-documented and I can see several of these in the pictures in the Club Report.

I'll also dig around elsewhere in the meantime.
As is often the case another melange of involvement, not always clear how much was done by who.

However, in this case the Braid involvement does seem well-documented and still largely in existence.
But this is an example of why we don't (in the AOJBC) seek to claim "Braid" courses as solely such; we just celebrate that Braid was there, and try to understand what work he did, and what remains.

[Niall C]

However, in this case the Braid involvement does seem well-documented and still largely in existence.
But this is an example of why we don't (in the AOJBC) seek to claim "Braid" courses as solely such; we just celebrate that Braid was there, and try to understand what work he did, and what remains.

Simon


Trying to understand who did what is what we are all trying to do. In terms of giving credit for Sherwood, my point was that he appears to have tweaked an existing layout, significant tweaks admittedly, rather than what I'd call a total redesign. I'm suggesting therefore that it's not a Braid course as such but a course he made changes to. That was my point earlier in the thread about Braid getting more credit than he's due. Yes, there will be the odd situation where one of his courses was altered by Colt/MacKenzie etc and became known as a Colt/MacKenzie course but I'd suggest that more often it went the other way with Sherwood perhaps being an example. That's not to diminish his work.


"Braid was known for his remodels, and when he did so he would try to respect what went before and would often assimilate the existing bunker [/size]style etc. to fit what was best on the site. But his strategic cues are well-documented and I can see several of these in the pictures in the Club Report."[/font][/color]




Interested in your comments above. I've seen a few Braid reports but can't recall seeing anything re bunker styles. In terms of the strategic cues you refer to, what are they ?


Niall

[Simon Barrington]

However, in this case the Braid involvement does seem well-documented and still largely in existence.
But this is an example of why we don't (in the AOJBC) seek to claim "Braid" courses as solely such; we just celebrate that Braid was there, and try to understand what work he did, and what remains.

Simon

Trying to understand who did what is what we are all trying to do. In terms of giving credit for Sherwood, my point was that he appears to have tweaked an existing layout, significant tweaks admittedly, rather than what I'd call a total redesign. I'm suggesting therefore that it's not a Braid course as such but a course he made changes to. That was my point earlier in the thread about Braid getting more credit than he's due. Yes, there will be the odd situation where one of his courses was altered by Colt/MacKenzie etc and became known as a Colt/MacKenzie course but I'd suggest that more often it went the other way with Sherwood perhaps being an example. That's not to diminish his work.

"Braid was known for his remodels, and when he did so he would try to respect what went before and would often assimilate the existing bunker style etc. to fit what was best on the site. But his strategic cues are well-documented and I can see several of these in the pictures in the Club Report."

Interested in your comments above. I've seen a few Braid reports but can't recall seeing anything re bunker styles. In terms of the strategic cues you refer to, what are they ?

Niall

Hello Niall,

We all are following the facts as we find them.
Really appreciate the engagement and questions, I am learning fast how things go on here!

What is absent is the confirmation that HS Colt did anything more than act "in an advisory capacity, approving the holes as laid out" - Ref: "The First Hundred Years" (SFGC Centenary Book) written by Les Stevenson & Don Woodward (notably former Executive Sports Editor for the Daily Express for 31 years) in 1995.
 
The person who seems short-changed in recognition is Frank Mason, who certainly was the contractor, but the SFGC Centenary Book also suggests it was he who "laid out the course" (that Colt subsequently "approved") c.1911-13. Although the Club did give him lifetime honorary membership in recognition (which may suggest more than just being the builder of the course?)

Perhaps Adam, others, and/or yourself may know what Harry Colt was doing elsewhere in 1911-13 but I can find no record of "Colt" and "Sherwood Forest" in this period in any literature search I have made so far.
But, I have found several relating to Braid between 1921 & 1930. Braid's input is clear, extensive (at least 11 holes with significant alterations) and well (and repeatedly) documented by several sources.

Maybe, you might be able to track a Colt+Sherwood Forest reference down in "Golfing" or Golf Illustrated"?
I know from your great Mackenzie Timeline research that you are more skilled than I with those sources
If you find a documented reference then I will be delighted, as the Club itself seems quite unsure of Colt's input in the original lay-out.

I was intrigued by your comment (in previous reply) that the course has "the bones" of Colt design, please can you elaborate on that contention? I need to learn more about Colt, so very open to hearing more.

In terms of bunker design, Braid was always precise to detail with the contractor/builder the style he wanted them to follow.
This wouldn't be on plans or proposals, which were strategic not aesthetic. He worked closely with whoever was constructing the course/changes. Stutt was explicit in writing about that, and I know that at Henley GC (1907) he specifically coached the HGC Director in Charge of Construction at Walton Heath over several days how to build the bunkers he wanted.

At SFGC, Braid is documented as having made several trips to SFGC specfically to do the same with SFGC Greenkeeper, George Vamplew (who was on the Staff when the original course was built, and before that at its 9-hole predecessor on another site, he retired in 1951, passing in 1953). Vamplew built the remodelled Braid course over 2 years with only 4 men, a horse and a cart! A talented craftsman certainly, and another man involved needing recognition IMHO

Re: Bunker Styles - Mostly, Braid utilised simply-shaped sunken bunkers with rolling tops and grass faces, and/or revetted pots (even inland). "Advanced Golf" is specific and very detailed about how he used them strategically.
I have found exceptions to that style that Colt and Mackenzie would be proud of in their own styles, as well as naturalised blow-out bunkers on links. So he did what the site and client wanted, and was far more adaptable and less-formulaic than oft painted.

In terms of strategic cues I'd prefer to give more detail having seen what is on the ground, but the diagonal fairway bunkering is one feature shouts loudly as Braid's. If you want to learn more on that then "Advanced Golf" is a must-read.

Cheers
Simon

[Simon Barrington]

Oh wow, I had no idea that Braid was a pro at Hastings. Colt was a member of the club throughout his time in the town, so there can be little doubt that the two met at that time, especially given their mutual connection through Rolland.

Hi Adam


Been digging and George Payne found definitive proof that Braid & Colt did meet at Hastings St. Leonards.


Not just that they met, but they played against each other in a recorded day of golf.


On the 11th December 1895 they played against each other twice in Foursomes Matches to mark the opening of the extended H&St.L Course.
 
In the Morning James Braid & J. Keddie (Professional) played against the Amateurs, Mr H.S. Colt & Mr A. C. Young in an 18-Hole Foursome Match.
The Professionals won (score not recorded)


In the Afternoon they mixed the pairings (presumably in an attempt to even up things) for another 18 Hole Foursome Match and Mr. A.C. Young & James Braid played against Mr. H.S. Colt & J. Keddie.
Mr. Young & Braid won 9 & 8, and also won the "Bye" 2 & 1.


Best wishes
Simon


P.S. A visit to Bishops Stortford together would be fun!

[Niall C]

Somewhere recently on this site Bishopbriggs GC was mentioned in relation to Braid but can't seem to find it so this thread is as good a place as any to make comment. I played there last week and was pleasantly surprised as it's not got much of a rep locally which is to say that it doesn't really have a rep at all rather than having a bad rep. That's maybe not surprising given how many other courses there are in the Glasgow area.


The course has some nice elevational changes here and there but is mostly fairly flat, plays through trees that you know are there but aren't too overbearing if you know what I mean. Quite a few of the holes have burns which are well used, there's gentle dog-legs and solid if unspectacular green complexes.


It's not all Braid as about 20 years ago 2 holes were redesigned into one, and two other holes were taken out of the course to be used as a practice area. The 3 new holes that were created make it a better routing in that the two holes used for the practice area were in the middle of a 4 hole stretch with the holes running backwards and forwards in a parallel fashion. The new holes are good but if I was being hypercritical I'd say the green complexes aren't in keeping with the other greens. Not at all bad but just different. Overall well worth a play.


Niall 

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