OT -Scheffler's Dominance

[Kalen Braley]

My favorite part of this, other than the fact that I was his walking scorer at Karsten Creek 13 years ago, is the fact that his putting resurgence coincides with removing the cheater line from his ball.

Ken,

I'm a bit confused by this.  Putting has long been the biggest hole in his game, but i'm not seeing a resurgence recently...

His stats are still pretty average/mediocre compared to previous 4 years (by rank of Total Putting and Strokes Gained)

Year        TP              SG
2024       100              95
2023        137             162
2022        120             58
2021        101             107
2020         114            117

[Ken Moum]

My favorite part of this, other than the fact that I was his walking scorer at Karsten Creek 13 years ago, is the fact that his putting resurgence coincides with removing the cheater line from his ball.

Ken,

I'm a bit confused by this.  Putting has long been the biggest hole in his game, but i'm not seeing a resurgence recently...

His stats are still pretty average/mediocre compared to previous 4 years (by rank of Total Putting and Strokes Gained)

Year        TP              SG
2024       100              95
2023        137             162
2022        120             58
2021        101             107
2020         114            117

He made the putter change before the API in early March, and I think he stopped using the line about the same time.  Since then he's had four wins and a second in five starts. 

It's been pretty commonly believed that if he just putted like an average tour player, he'd be almost unbeatable.

I found some stats on DataGolf about his putting and in the five events since he switched he's been positive in SGP every week.  The numbers are API +1.29, Players +.43, Houston Open +.11, Players +.61, RBC +.21.

In the previous 20 events, going back to March 2023, he was negative strokes gained 13 times. 

His best in that stretch were Pebble Beach +.61 (T6), the PGA +.39 (T2), the Hero +.34 (Win), The US Open +.32 (3).

At the Memorial he was -2.00 and finished third!

So he's not Brad Faxon, but so far he doesn't need to be.

[Niall C]

Can anyone explain to me what the Total Putting and Strokes Gained stats are or rather how they are calculated ? Apologies for being thick but it's not immediately obvious to me at any rate.


Niall

[David_Tepper]

Nial -

Interesting blog on PGA Tour putting stats and what they represent:

https://www.yardstickgolf.com/pga-tour-putting-statistics.html

DT

[Ken Moum]

Can anyone explain to me what the Total Putting and Strokes Gained stats are or rather how they are calculated ? Apologies for being thick but it's not immediately obvious to me at any rate.


Niall

Simplified,  it's the average number of strokes for a given putt, minus the number taken by the player. If you make a 15 footer, and the average was 1.75 strokes, you gained .75 on that putt.


For one shot, the is probably pretty meaningless, but over 72 holes, or a season, it shows how well you did vs. the field.


0.0 strokes gained is an average player. Taylor Montgomery is almost +1 right now, which means he's picking up 4 shots on the average over 72 holes.

[Chris Hughes]

--------------------------TOM DOAK said:

I noticed none of the commentators on PGA TOUR broadcasts have considered the possibility that the field of competitors is somewhat diluted these days, and that would make it easier for a great player at the peak of his game to win several tournaments in a row.

You forgot to mention a few of them yourself.  In fact, of the last five major championship winners, before Scheffler, three of them are no longer competing against him on the PGA TOUR.  None of them could beat him two weeks ago, but in the rest of those events, the competition was not as strong.


------------------------


The first LIV Golf event was held in June of 2022.

Using the OWGR Top-50 as of 1/1/2022 the following 19 players (listed by rank/name) now play on the LIV Golf circuit:

1.  Rahm
3.  Dustin
5.  Bryson
10.  Oosthuizen
16.  Koepka
17.  Ancer
20.  Kokrak
21.  Cam Smith
22.  Hatton
25.  P. Reed
28.  P. Casey
29.  K. Na
30.  Wolff
31.  Niemann
32.  Gooch
33.  Mickelson
36.  Leishman
37.  Westwood
45.  Garcia

At the time Scheffler was ranked #12. 

19 represents 38% of the OWGR Top-50 going into 2022.

Gooch's "asterisk" comment at Masters time drew a lot of attention but at this point there's a good case to be made that every PGA Tour event/win is asterisk worthy!

I secured a couple of passes to Quail Hollow for a friend to attend today.  Tuesday evening as we were looking at the pairings/tee-times she said "I don't recognize any of the names other the Spieth and McIlroy"...
 

[Niall C]

David/Ken,


A belated thank you to you both for offering explanations on Strokes Gained.


Niall

[JohnVDB]

--------------------------TOM DOAK said:

I noticed none of the commentators on PGA TOUR broadcasts have considered the possibility that the field of competitors is somewhat diluted these days, and that would make it easier for a great player at the peak of his game to win several tournaments in a row.

You forgot to mention a few of them yourself.  In fact, of the last five major championship winners, before Scheffler, three of them are no longer competing against him on the PGA TOUR.  None of them could beat him two weeks ago, but in the rest of those events, the competition was not as strong.


------------------------


The first LIV Golf event was held in June of 2022.

Using the OWGR Top-50 as of 1/1/2022 the following 19 players (listed by rank/name) now play on the LIV Golf circuit:

1.  Rahm
3.  Dustin
5.  Bryson
10.  Oosthuizen
16.  Koepka
17.  Ancer
20.  Kokrak
21.  Cam Smith
22.  Hatton
25.  P. Reed
28.  P. Casey
29.  K. Na
30.  Wolff
31.  Niemann
32.  Gooch
33.  Mickelson
36.  Leishman
37.  Westwood
45.  Garcia

At the time Scheffler was ranked #12. 

19 represents 38% of the OWGR Top-50 going into 2022.

Gooch's "asterisk" comment at Masters time drew a lot of attention but at this point there's a good case to be made that every PGA Tour event/win is asterisk worthy!

I secured a couple of passes to Quail Hollow for a friend to attend today.  Tuesday evening as we were looking at the pairings/tee-times she said "I don't recognize any of the names other the Spieth and McIlroy"...

Given she only recognized those two I doubt she’d recognize more than 3 or 4 of the LIV list, if that.  If she doesn’t recognize Justin Thomas, Morikawa or Rickie Fowler, she obvious isn’t much of a professional golf follower.


As for Tom’s comments, people have said similar things about Byron Nelson’s 11 in a row right after the end of the Second World War.  You can only beat the players in the field that day.

[Kalen Braley]

Chris,

No doubt LIV has had an impact to the PGA Tour, but if we're looking at the numbers, the other 62% of that top 50 are still on the PGA Tour, (much less other players who have emerged in the last 2.5 years since).  The fact remains that the vast majority of the best 125-150 players in the world week in and week out, still play on the PGA Tour.

P.S. Curious why didn't mention LIV players like Anthony Kim and others who couldn't even get on the Korn Ferry much less the PGATour.

[Chris Hughes]

--------------------------TOM DOAK said:

I noticed none of the commentators on PGA TOUR broadcasts have considered the possibility that the field of competitors is somewhat diluted these days, and that would make it easier for a great player at the peak of his game to win several tournaments in a row.

You forgot to mention a few of them yourself.  In fact, of the last five major championship winners, before Scheffler, three of them are no longer competing against him on the PGA TOUR.  None of them could beat him two weeks ago, but in the rest of those events, the competition was not as strong.


------------------------


The first LIV Golf event was held in June of 2022.

Using the OWGR Top-50 as of 1/1/2022 the following 19 players (listed by rank/name) now play on the LIV Golf circuit:

1.  Rahm
3.  Dustin
5.  Bryson
10.  Oosthuizen
16.  Koepka
17.  Ancer
20.  Kokrak
21.  Cam Smith
22.  Hatton
25.  P. Reed
28.  P. Casey
29.  K. Na
30.  Wolff
31.  Niemann
32.  Gooch
33.  Mickelson
36.  Leishman
37.  Westwood
45.  Garcia

At the time Scheffler was ranked #12. 

19 represents 38% of the OWGR Top-50 going into 2022.

Gooch's "asterisk" comment at Masters time drew a lot of attention but at this point there's a good case to be made that every PGA Tour event/win is asterisk worthy!

I secured a couple of passes to Quail Hollow for a friend to attend today.  Tuesday evening as we were looking at the pairings/tee-times she said "I don't recognize any of the names other the Spieth and McIlroy"...

Given she only recognized those two I doubt she’d recognize more than 3 or 4 of the LIV list, if that.  If she doesn’t recognize Justin Thomas, Morikawa or Rickie Fowler, she obvious isn’t much of a professional golf follower.

Interestingly I did specifically ask about Justin Thomas, didn't know of him.  I also pointed out Rickie Fowler, was a yes there.

Rahm, Dustin, Bryson, Phil, Sergio, Brooks...all affirmative and the last five on just a first name basis.

To add insult-to-injury for the 2nd year in a row Johnny hasn't gotten the #1 player in the world to Quail (last year it was Rahm, but Scheffler skipped too) and the hottest new story this year skipped as well (Aberg).   

All that said, you are correct in that she isn't "much of a professional golf follower" -- but that category of fan is still an important part the PGA Tour model -- and the ratings seem to indicate the Tour is losing a very large chunk of the group.



 

[Chris Hughes]

The fact remains that the vast majority of the best 125-150 players in the world week in and week out, still play on the PGA Tour.

Not the "vast majority" of active major champions and those who have actually won regularly on the PGA Tour.


A cursory glance seems to indicate the Quail field only includes 2 Masters champions...LIV Golf has 7 every week.

I'm not for or against either circuit (LIV and let live  ) -- and Scheffler seems to be as fine a gentleman as there is -- but records* set in the current environment just can't be compared to what Tiger did.

[Kalen Braley]

A bit of post PGA Analysis with results.

16 LIV guys attended or were invited (Presumably their best players)

1 - top 10
1 - Between 10-25
2 - Between 26 - 40
7 - Between 43 and 73
5 - Missed Cuts

Doesn't exactly seem to be an indictment on the "lesser quality" of Scottie Scheffler's wins, especially given he was arrested, booked, and still finished in the top 10 and higher than all but one of them.

[mike_beene]

The real difference between LIV and the rest of golf: Bryson seemed excited and grateful to be playing in a real golf tournament. I feel sorry for him. Sometimes our decisions have long term consequences.

[Rob Marshall]

The real difference between LIV and the rest of golf: Bryson seemed excited and grateful to be playing in a real golf tournament. I feel sorry for him. Sometimes our decisions have long term consequences.

I don’t feel sorry for him. He’s a tremendous talent who took a boat load of guaranteed money and said these beauties (see below). He was hard to root for when he was on the tour but then again, “nobody’s perfect”.


https://www.businessinsider.com/bryson-dechambeau-liv-golfer-criticism-saudi-arabia-nobodys-perfect-2023-6

[Sean_A]

A bit of post PGA Analysis with results.

16 LIV guys attended or were invited (Presumably their best players)

1 - top 10
1 - Between 10-25
2 - Between 26 - 40
7 - Between 43 and 73
5 - Missed Cuts

Doesn't exactly seem to be an indictment on the "lesser quality" of Scottie Scheffler's wins, especially given he was arrested, booked, and still finished in the top 10 and higher than all but one of them.

I don’t know the breakdown, but the real question is how do LIV players compare to the other tours which qualify for ranking points.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

The real difference between LIV and the rest of golf: Bryson seemed excited and grateful to be playing in a real golf tournament. I feel sorry for him. Sometimes our decisions have long term consequences.

Bryson showed a lot of class by seeking Schauffle out after the round to congratulate him. I don’t know that there is anyone more exciting to watch when he gets it going.

[Rob Marshall]

The real difference between LIV and the rest of golf: Bryson seemed excited and grateful to be playing in a real golf tournament. I feel sorry for him. Sometimes our decisions have long term consequences.

Bryson showed a lot of class by seeking Schauffle out after the round to congratulate him. I don’t know that there is anyone more exciting to watch when he gets it going.

Tim, I agree but most guys would do that. Thomas and Lowry both waited for Xander. Bryson is exciting to watch but imo everything he does looks awkward. I can barely watch him putt. He however, and probably Brooks are working as hard or harder on their games as when they were on the PGA tour than anyone else on LIV. I think he wins another major before his career is over.

[David_Tepper]

Meanwhile Nelly Korda wins 6 of her last 7 starts.

https://golf.com/news/nelly-korda-wins-mizuho-americas-open/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golfcom&utm_medium=email&utm_content={date(

[Tim Martin]

The real difference between LIV and the rest of golf: Bryson seemed excited and grateful to be playing in a real golf tournament. I feel sorry for him. Sometimes our decisions have long term consequences.

Bryson showed a lot of class by seeking Schauffle out after the round to congratulate him. I don’t know that there is anyone more exciting to watch when he gets it going.

Tim, I agree but most guys would do that. Thomas and Lowry both waited for Xander. Bryson is exciting to watch but imo everything he does looks awkward. I can barely watch him putt. He however, and probably Brooks are working as hard or harder on their games as when they were on the PGA tour than anyone else on LIV. I think he wins another major before his career is over.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/bryson-dechambeau-confronts-man-swiped-golf-ball-meant-young-fan


Hate him if you have to.

[Rob Marshall]

The real difference between LIV and the rest of golf: Bryson seemed excited and grateful to be playing in a real golf tournament. I feel sorry for him. Sometimes our decisions have long term consequences.

Bryson showed a lot of class by seeking Schauffle out after the round to congratulate him. I don’t know that there is anyone more exciting to watch when he gets it going.

Tim, I agree but most guys would do that. Thomas and Lowry both waited for Xander. Bryson is exciting to watch but imo everything he does looks awkward. I can barely watch him putt. He however, and probably Brooks are working as hard or harder on their games as when they were on the PGA tour than anyone else on LIV. I think he wins another major before his career is over.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/bryson-dechambeau-confronts-man-swiped-golf-ball-meant-young-fan


Hate him if you have to.

Just saw that. That was pretty classy! And in the middle of the round.

[Jeff Schley]

The real difference between LIV and the rest of golf: Bryson seemed excited and grateful to be playing in a real golf tournament. I feel sorry for him. Sometimes our decisions have long term consequences.

Bryson showed a lot of class by seeking Schauffle out after the round to congratulate him. I don’t know that there is anyone more exciting to watch when he gets it going.

Tim, I agree but most guys would do that. Thomas and Lowry both waited for Xander. Bryson is exciting to watch but imo everything he does looks awkward. I can barely watch him putt. He however, and probably Brooks are working as hard or harder on their games as when they were on the PGA tour than anyone else on LIV. I think he wins another major before his career is over.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/bryson-dechambeau-confronts-man-swiped-golf-ball-meant-young-fan


Hate him if you have to.

Just saw that. That was pretty classy! And in the middle of the round.

Agree, just saw this. Bryson was so focused and psyched up yesterday I'm surprised he was that aware.  Kudos to him.