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John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Design features with a ?
« on: September 25, 2023, 01:25:10 PM »
Recently I've come across the following that I've seen showing up on newer courses. I understand that they both have strategic intent but I'm not sure I understanding the reason they seem to be occurring more on newer courses vs old?


Lions mouth bunker &  the very shallow green (10-12 yards) w/ trouble long.


Are both of these features classics and should be revered or are they too copied across courses?







Integrity in the moment of choice

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Design features with a ?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2023, 09:52:22 PM »
Where have you seen greens that are only 10-12 yards deep?  I sure can’t think of many.

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design features with a ?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2023, 11:45:34 PM »
Does anyone know where the term Lion’s Mouth comes from?  Is that a modern term or did Macdonald, Raynor and Banks ever characterize one of these greens as the Lion’s Mouth?  I know Raynor and Banks built them, but I can’t find any record of the architects referring to these holes as Lion’s Mouth’s, which raised this question. 


I have played a few Lion’s Mouths this year and they are a fun and interesting concept.  They likely score big on social media, because it’s a unique concept, photogenic and recognizable. Do we need a boatload more?  Probably not,  but I do enjoy playing them on Raynor and Banks courses.  It reminds me a little of the Biarritz at Yale.  Back in the day Yale’s Biarritz was unique, because it was one of very few that had both the front and back mowed as green.  Over time more clubs mowed both sections of the Biarritz, resulting in a streamlined look across Biarritz’s. Today, the Biarritz’s that are most unique only have the back section mowed as green, even though that’s how most, if not all were originally designed.  It’s the cool thing to do, is probably the best answer?



I played a nine-hole course this year that has a 1965 Al Zikorus version of a 10-12 yard deep green and it’s a do or die proposition. A short miss is okay, so long as you don’t find the central bunker, but long is dead. I would not recommend building anymore of these greens. My guess is they were modeling the green after the 12th at Augusta?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design features with a ?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2023, 06:09:57 AM »
Lions Mouth: 13th hole at TOC. Description likely goes back a long, long time.
Atb

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design features with a ?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2023, 09:41:24 AM »
Where have you seen greens that are only 10-12 yards deep?  I sure can’t think of many.


The two were both at Gil's course and probably a bit longer but they are eye opening designs.


#4 @ CapRock & #5 @ Boston Golf Club



Integrity in the moment of choice

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Design features with a ?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2023, 09:48:49 AM »
Thomas,


Thank you for your answer.  Now that you’ve identified the hole that the Lion’s Mouth was designed after, do you know of any instances where Macdonald, Raynor or Banks characterized their American versions as a Lion’s Mouth?  Did CC of Charleston know they were playing a Lion’s Mouth green complex in the 1920’s-1990’s or was the name of this hole identified in the late 1990’s to 2000’s?  I am more curious of when the American versions started to don that name?


Bret
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 09:51:59 AM by Bret Lawrence »