The ultimate test to determine a green's greatness ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the ultimate test of a green the challenge it presents, not just from its current angles of approach, but from 360 degrees of approach ?

I would submit that Road Hole greens, and especially the 7th at NGLA fit this criterion.

# 12 at ANGC and # 13 at Pine Tree would seem to qualify, but not to the extent that # 7 at NGLA does.

What greens, that you've played do you feel will pass this test ? And, why ??

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat:
It seems to me the ultimate green can change your shot selection from the fairway as well as putting from 360 degrees.  I think of greens that can change your club selection (and type of shots) 1 to 3 clubs with the pin being placed from front to back.  The 10th at Friars Head seems a better choice than the 12th at ANGC.

[Brock Peyer]

I haven't played it yet but I think that the 14th at Augusta is the ultimate green.  It is only 1 maybe 2 clubs deep with alot of un-pinnable space on the green but I don't know of many east chips to it nor too many easy putts.

[TEPaul]

I wouldn't really think a green's greatness has that much to do with whether or not it could actually be used in different applications from 360 degrees as we were surmising out there at NGLA's #7. That's an interest, for sure, but basically one for a clever architect's mental inventory. A green that somehow could actually be used on A golf course from 360 degrees and used really well would be a consideration for true greatness, though. But to be able to do that one would sort of need to design a course with that type of green that could be considered what I've sometimes referred to a "courses within a course"

I believe that the realization of a true "courses within a course" concept just might be the ultimate architectural expression. To do something like that, though, you'd obviously need not only a really special piece of property but a huge amount of planning and architecture work and probably a bit more than a little luck!!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

That would be green "D" at The Sheep Ranch.  Maybe you'll get to see it someday.

As for Patrick's point, I'm not sure if he meant hitting a full approach shot from anywhere 360 degrees around, or more likely just the recovery shots from everywhere around the green.  (I suspect he meant the latter, since the approach to the 12th green at Augusta over the trees from Augusta C.C. is a bit unfair.)

Assuming it's the latter, I agree totally.  I spend more of my time assessing the potential of recovery shots from around greens while we're building them, then assesing the shot values if the hole is played correctly.

[HamiltonBHearst]

I am not sure the tenth green on FH is even one of the top ten greens on the course.  I your definiton Joel any green with a lot of depth would be the ultimate test.  I wonder if the seventh at FH is as deep as the 10th?  Now that is a green.

[Dan Kelly]

I spend more of my time assessing the potential of recovery shots from around greens while we're building them, then assesing the shot values if the hole is played correctly.

Very interesting. Would you please elaborate on what you mean by "the potential of recovery shots"?

How potentially INTERESTING they'll be? How potentially FAIR they'll be? How potentially CHALLENGING they'll be? How potentially FUN they'll be? How potentially VARIOUS they'll be, on any one hole or over a whole course?

Do you specifically think: This miss over here will be the BAD MISS, so we'll make this the harder recovery -- and that miss over there will be the NOT-SO-BAD MISS, so we'll make that the easier recovery?

Do you ever specifically think: Let's make this miss LOOK LIKE the bad miss -- whereas, in reality, that miss over there will BE the bad miss?

Lots of questions! Any answers appreciated.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

What Pat meant is if a green could be used to basically approach from basically 360 degrees. The reason he said it is Pat, George Bahto, and me were standing around it last Saturday, particularly at the narrow end on the right and we started talking about all the interesting ways that green could be used in different applications on other courses such as approaching the narrow end from  a par 3 tee about 175yds basically behind #8 tee or as a long par 4 coming from the other end (over from the direction of the 11th fairway). It would play sort of like the 1st at PVGC from that direction and as a par 3 from the other direction it would play awesome, particularly to a front pin in that narrow section where if you wanted to get close you'd have to really be accurate (a shot of about 155) or if you wanted to play conservative you'd play a shot of about 185 to the back and putt back to the front pin. Coming at that green from the 8th fairway though over that big bunker in back would be maybe not the greatest but who knows.

But Pat didn't mean just recoverying--he meant that and also approaching with various applications.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

The 360 degree question is interesting but is it really significant in the real world?  In almost all cases full shots are only hit from a 90 degree arc from the center of the green.  

A truly great green forces decisions from the tee area through the hole.  It forces the player to assault the hole from different positions depending on the placement of the flagstick.  A truly great green also provides for interest and variation in the short game.  A radius of fifty yards in should provide complications and puzzles to intrigue the player.

[A_Clay_Man]

Would Pinehurst #2 be the perfect example?

Here on the old nine holes at Riverview, the greens are mostly crowned and very subtle. Some of the approaches from behind the green are the coolest(and biggest) false fronts I have ever seen.

[TEPaul]

Can you imagine playing to a duplicate on another course of NGLA's #6 from the right of the green? Can you imagine playing to a duplicate of it on another course from the left of the green? Can you imagine playing to NGLA's #3 green from the direction of the redan green? Can you imagine playing to a short drop shot to a duplicate of NGLA's #1 green from the right of it (shallow and wide). The same thing can be said about the 7th, the road green, from at least two other angles. Imagine playing to the 10th green at NGLA from dead to the right of it from about 200+ yds with all that fairway run-up in front (the fairway on its right now). That one would be a bit strange but Veery interesting to try to do. You might even be forced to hit cut shots, draw shots, high shots and run-in shots!!

There're so many possiblities in this world, so many arrangements with existing greens in other iterations that could be tried. It's all just part, to me, of what Bill Coore calls the "notes and their arrangements" (the endless musical notes waiting to be arranged into a symphony) (analogous to architectural features including greens ) just waiting for various arrangements that have never been done before!

[Tom_Doak]

Dan K:  The answer to pretty much every one of your questions is yes.

Tom P:  I understand what you mean, but there are even more possible combinations if you include all the original green designs I'm going to build over the next few years.  I'd rather work on those than copy #6 at National from different angles, as much as I love #6 at National.

Another point to ponder:  Taking the 6th at National as an example, isn't there one particular angle which is more interesting than the rest?  And, if so, why would you want to use it at other (less interesting) angles?

[Chris Kane]

Maybe a green like the 2nd at Commonwealth?  Recovery shots are interesting from all 360 degrees of short game positions, and moving just two or three metres along from one position requires a totally different shot to the previous spot.

Paul Daley wrote about this green complex in his Sandbelt book.  A terrific piece of golden age architecture.

[skivail]

Probably the 14th at ANGC just cos its terribly hard to get up and down if the green is missed with the approach. The 6th at Kingston Heath.

[Jim Sweeney]

The two that come immeadiayely to mind are the fifth at Yale (short) and the 7th at Shinnecock (redan) because missingnthe green at any angle provides tough, but fair recoveries from a variety of surfaces.

However, I beleive grens are designed be best attacked from one angle or another, thought eh cunning golfer will miss to an advantagis spot if the best approached is not an option due to a miscue on the previous shot. It seems that whether a green could be used from a different angle, though an interesting speculation, is moot- it isn't.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Please explain the concept to them again, they don't understand the application of both approach and recovery shots.

Cos,

If you hit every green in regulation, then the exercise has no value.

Tom Doak,

I don't know that certain greens, provide a significant disparity between the best and alternate angles of approach.

The front/left slope certainly plays a significant factor at #6, and its ability to receive and repel shots,  but at # 7 with its relatively flat green, I don't know that any particular angle of attack provides that much more of a test then any of the other angles of approach, and perhaps, that's what makes it such a great green.

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak said;

"Tom P:  I understand what you mean, but there are even more possible combinations if you include all the original green designs I'm going to build over the next few years."

I love to hear that stuff. Go for it--you're the Man! You've been very consistent, all along, about your feeling on doing any kind of template or copy holes or features in design--basically that you'd prefer to steer clear of that if the opportunity to do something original that can work even better comes along and can get done well.

I agree with that. The only reason I mention those possiblities of approaching some great greens from other angles is because they really could work super in other iterations even if they're somewhat recognizable in another iteration. That to me is a form of variety but obviously not as pure as a real original. Why not use them in their exact origianal approach form instead of coming at them from another direction? Simply because that really is copying and lacking in any kind of originality.

I'm sure you can visualize it sitting wherever you are but to see that road hole green out at NGLA and imagining the possibilities of reiterating it into a par 3 into the narrow end is really something--it's just really cool to see all the possibilities and super options just staring at you.

Of course it would need to be tweaked a bit because if used in an exact duplicate it would be too intense on certain options--like the run-up option. Pat Mucci doesn't think so but that's why he's full of shit about 98% of the time. Actually he's doing well and only full of shit about 90% of the time now because he's been listening more and hanging around me more lately!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Dr. Katz has told me that it is critical for his treatment that TEPaul be allowed to think he is right.

Did you know that before he met me he thought that a Redan was a famous French sculptor.

That a short was Touluse Le Trec

That a Biarritz was a fancy bar.

That a Knoll was an ugly little ogre.

That a Road Hole was a biker bar on the highway.

That a Bottle Hole was a disposal site.

That a Cape was a castrated male chicken.

That a Hog's back was an Arkansas football player.

The man just doesn't have a clue, ...help him..... humor him.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

??

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Cos,

If you hit every green in regulation, then the exercise has no value.

Pat,
If only I could hit every green in regulation!

The assumption is that any shot under 60 yards is not going to be a "full shot".  I am all for chipping and pitching variations from 360° around the green.  What I am saying is simply that a truly great green extends its influence all the way to the tee.  The green will dictate where to miss shots and where to place tee balls.  In much of design today we see a mindless set of strategic choices.  Holes with so little interest or variation that power becomes the one and only skill.  

Make me think early and often and you have me on the run!

[frank_D]

most obviously i would reply - the 17th at pebble beach because i've seen it played from every angle (which is your criteria) by both pro and amateur alike - as you know with the wind it is as likely to be short / long and left / right depending on the weather conditions - so it has the potential to be played from every angle ALL the time