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Carlyle Rood

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St. Andrews turf
« on: December 09, 2003, 11:38:56 PM »
Does anyone have any idea what the original turf was composed of at St. Andrews?  Would anyone know the botanical name(s)?

C

P.S. And I mean ORIGINAL turf. :)
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ForkaB

Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2003, 05:05:37 AM »
Caryle

Try Robert Price's "Scotland's Golf Courses."  You may even find from which part of Godwonsland (sic) various parts of the topsoil originated!
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Mike Hendren

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2003, 09:48:07 AM »
Perhaps the answer lies in the question:  What do rabbits eat?

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

A_Clay_Man

Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2003, 10:24:55 AM »
Carlyle- I can be of no help in your query but I do want to relay a story. Sheryl was working a craft show at the local high school and a women came by wearing a St Andrews sweatshirt. I engaged her in conversation about The Old Course and her reply was that she had never golfed it but had studied at the University and would look at that turf and think 'how could anyone play golf' on what looked like a cow pasture to her. I responded with something along the lines of  'perhaps it's the way us americans wrongly perceive what is important in this game.' I'd bet she was a local, born and bred.  ::)
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Jay Carstens

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2003, 10:26:21 AM »
Carlyle,
Not much of the proper for you but I was rereading "A Wee Nip at the 19th Hole" by Richard Mackenzie last night and from a chapter called Cawdys:
"The course then was not what we know today.  It was about half the width and today's seventeenth hole was then the first.  The links were originally covered with rough grass, thick gorse and wild heather, and the course was marked out with march stones, with whin bushes all the way up the right-hand side of what is the outward part of today's course.  Given the undulating land, thick grass and rough ground, it is easy to see why the fore-caddie came into his own at St. Andrews.  But the hand of man was already at work.  Tom Morris was appointed Keeper of the Green in 1864, after which time he developed a new first and eighteenth green on the Old Course and was involved in widening the fairways."  
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Play the course as you find it

Jay Carstens

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2003, 10:29:15 AM »
Where does Allen Robertson fit into this?  
I thought he was responsible.  ???

Anyway, the book is terrific.  I'd highly recommend it if you haven't read it.  
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Play the course as you find it

Mike Hendren

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2003, 10:54:31 AM »
Perhaps the names of the 6th and 12th holes offer some insight?

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

LKoonce

Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2003, 11:23:39 AM »
The following press release is from the large grass seed company Barenbrug, which was working with the Links Trust (at least as of a few years ago) -- maybe they could provide some answers, if no one else seems to know:

http://www.seedquest.com/News/Press%20releases/Barenbrug/N1110.htm

The press release describes most of the grass types at St. Andrews as varieties of red fescue.

Also, I would think that the "rabbity" turf MacKenzie describes would still be in some evidence along the coastline south of St. Andrews towards Crail -- there must be some undeveloped property near the coast that has still similar characteristics?
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Marty Bonnar

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2003, 11:39:37 AM »
Carlyle,
I'd have to guess that the ORIGINAL turf at St A is primarily what is STILL there today! Given the minimalistic approach to 'turf management' practised at our old Links sites, and the fabulous playing qualities of the old Bents and Fescues, Allan Robertson and Old Tom himself would have been loath (and /or too mean!) to dig it all up and re-seed with Tifdwarf/Bermuda/Paspalum/insert other latest grass fad or any other 'modern' contrivance!!!

Cue my Agronomist buddies or, better still, B Phillips, esq......go on, call me a liar! :)

FBD.

PS A quote from the Robert Price book that Rich mentions:
'Since most Scottish dune systems are less than 6,000 years old and, since the dunes were often used as settlement sites by early man, it is likely that there has always been some human interference in the dune system. Dunes are very rich in species of plants and animals. A survey of natural and introduced vascular plants on 43 of the more important dune systems in Britain showed that over 900 species occur on them........'

PHEW!!!
« Last Edit: December 10, 2003, 11:42:29 AM by Fatbaldydrummer »
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Eddie Adams

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2003, 12:27:26 PM »
   Carlyle

           The vast majority of turf speci on The Old Course is indeginous to the area, indeed the main priority is to keep the turf that belongs there maintained in such away that it is difficult for weeds such as Poa annua to enter the existing sward.
 Any introduction of new seed into the course is not done on a regular basis but when it is the selection of seed has to
compliment the turf species it is going to be overseeded into.

                  I have provided a list of the grass species that are indeginous to the St Andrews area although not comprehensive but it should give you an idea, hope this of some help.

      1.Slender creeping red fescue (festuca rubra litoralis)                              
      2.Chewings fescue (festuca rubra commutata)
      3.Browntop Bent (agrostis tenuis)
      4.Tall and Sheeps fescues and also Sea Lyme and Marram grasses.
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Jay Carstens

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2003, 12:56:05 PM »
Eddie:
I think I saw you last night after I'd had a wee nip.  ;)
Drop me a line if you get time.
Jay
Highlands GC
Lincoln, NE
jay@neb.rr.com
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Play the course as you find it

Marty Bonnar

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2003, 05:24:39 AM »
Carlyle,
If the Eddie above is the Eddie I think it is, then I'd REALLY pay attention!!!! (You'll get no better knowledge of TOC grasses than from him!!!)

FBD.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Brian Phillips

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2003, 05:46:48 AM »
If Eddie is the Eddie I think it is then i also agree with FBD!

Brian
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Carlyle Rood

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Re:St. Andrews turf
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2003, 04:09:00 PM »
And if it's the Eddie that I think it is...oh, wait.  I don't know anyone named Eddie.

Well, I'm grateful for your help anyway Eddie!  ;D
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