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Mike Nuzzo

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Greens are what make angles matter most
« on: February 24, 2023, 10:33:59 AM »
Most angles of attack don't matter because most greens slope back to front.
If a green slopes from left to right or right to left the angle of attack matters.
A green primarily sloping towards 1:00-5:00 & 7:00-11:00 as on the face of a clock rewards players for hitting particular sides of the fairway.
Peace

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Niall C

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2023, 11:22:12 AM »
Mike


I agree with the thread title and you may be correct about greens mainly sloping back to front in your part of the world. That may even be the case in the UK but I'm not sure it is, and even then I don't thinks its the most important factor over here. I think the orientation of the green and how it is guarded are what creates the angles. It should also be said that the importance of angles is generally accentuated when the course is firm.


Niall

Phil Young

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2023, 05:45:57 PM »
      On September, 1936, Tilly gave an interview to a reporter from the Boston Herald. During their conversation, He explained his philosophy of design in a single sentence. I believe that it addresses each of the separate discussions on the importance or lack thereof, angle of play.
      During the interview, which was included in the article, he told John English, the reporter for the Herald, the following:
      “‘The one shot that tells the story in golf is the shot to the green, and if you conceive of golf as a game of animate attack and inanimate defense with regard to that shot, you have my theory of design in a nutshell,’ he summarized, and then sank back to finger his pointed white moustache and seek adequate explanation.
      “Rising forward again, he continued. ‘Where would Joe Louis be now if he fought from a stance like this?’ And he held out his two fists straight forward from the shoulders. ‘Anyone could poke him right on the nose if he used that defense.’ No doubt about that.
      “‘But when he covers himself like this, you have to be good to hit him.’ And he bent his elbows so that his forearms curved in, protecting his jaw.
      “Having made clear this point with pugilism, Tillinghast relaxed his arms and returned the conversation to golf.
      “‘Now,’ he continued, ‘instead of hitting through arms and hands to a jaw, think of the same thing on a golf course. Only, instead of arms and hands, think of traps, and instead of the jaw, insert the green.
      “‘All my courses are designed on the principle of the master trap guarding the green, just the way the hands might guard the jaw. To play them successfully, the drive must be so placed that the second shot can be hit from the one good strategic position in the fairway. And then the approach to the green must still avoid this one master trap.
      “‘You see now, I hope, my theory of inanimate defense against the animate attack of mid-irons, mashies and niblicks.’
      “But having clarified this point which menaces the Sarazens, the Hagens, the Goodmans and the Campbells, what did it have to do with aiding the army of golfers who have their trouble getting to that master bunker, let alone placing drives and guiding second shots?
      “‘Just this,’ he explained. ‘If that master bunker remains by the green, the par golfer will always have his troubles. But nearly all the fairway traps can be removed. They only harass the dub, who will have trouble enough without them. They do not affect the par golfer, who is seeking only to place his drive on the right side of the fairway and get a good shot at the green.
      “‘By taking out all those unnecessary traps, which often catch good drives by poor players, you make the game more attractive to them. Heaven knows, those poor fellows, who pay the freight on golf, have enough  trouble  without  spending  their  afternoon  wallowing  in  sand traps.’”
      What strikes me is that, to this day, his greens are generally considered among the great ones ever built. Yet one can see from above that they were designed and built based on a “Master Trap” guarding the green complex from the shot into it, and by creating a singular area in the fairway that will provide the best angle into the green that usually only was found by the accomplished player. It took skill to make par back then. Those who broke it on a regular basis were considered to be the best players there in the game.
      If one wants to bring that purity of skill back into the game, clubs and the golf balls need to be reversed to what they were in the late 1960s-70s. What’s wrong with requiring that we get rid of medal woods? That the shaft of the driver shouldn’t exceed 43 inches and that the heads be actually made out of wood? That would certainly reign in the mammoth distances that today’s engineered cudgels allow the ball to fly. Speaking of the ball, by allowing them to be made so that the true hook and slice have become a thing of the past, has also aided in bringing about the loss of skill in the game.
      Just a different perspective on the issue…

David_Tepper

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2023, 08:56:27 PM »
I would say the angle of the green (relative to the fairway) can matter quite a bit, especially if the green is set at a diagonal.

The short par-4 5th hole at Royal Dornoch is a good example of this. The green is long, rather narrow and set on a left to right diagonal, with a steep drop-off along the whole right edge of the green. The fairway is pretty wide.

When the pin is at the front of the green, it does not matter too much on your 2nd shot if you are down the left or right side of the fairway. However, the deeper the pin is cut in the green, the more you want to play your tee shot down the left side of the fairway. This gives you far more green to work with on your 2nd shot. The margin for error playing to a back fin from the right side of the fairway is very small.
 

Mike Bodo

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2023, 10:17:12 AM »
I would say the angle of the green (relative to the fairway) can matter quite a bit, especially if the green is set at a diagonal.

The short par-4 5th hole at Royal Dornoch is a good example of this. The green is long, rather narrow and set on a left to right diagonal, with a steep drop-off along the whole right edge of the green. The fairway is pretty wide.
I concurr 100%! Look at the 12th ANGC as proof. The hole plays a full club different from the front left to the back right, with all sorts of risks associated with attacking the latter. The lengthed 13th there will be interesting to watch play this year, as that green is angled as well and the second shots into it will have a much higher "risk" component because they're longer and the bombers that were taking their drives over the trees on the left side previously won't have that luxury gong forward.


This begs the question, why aren't they're more angled, kidney shaped or even boomerang style greens being designed aside from maintenance costs? There are too many courses with circular and or oval-shaped greens. I get the reasons for it, but it often makes for boring golf.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2023, 11:07:25 AM »
An angled green is not the same as a sloped green. An angled green can still slope from back to front.


A 3-dimensional surface pointing to the left, or right, is different than a 2d surface aligned towards the left or right.


If a green slope is tilted to the right good luck hitting and holding a shot from the left side of the fairway.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Bodo

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2023, 11:16:57 AM »
An angled green is not the same as a sloped green. An angled green can still slope from back to front.
Agree, Mike. I'm operating under ther presumption there's slope and tilt to the styles of greens previously described, in addition to unspecified undulations.


I like what TD mentioned in a separate thread about putting contours and undulations in the middle of some of the greens he did at Memorial Park, forcing players to pick a side or section knowing the middle wasn't an entirely safe or even good play.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

archie_struthers

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2023, 12:41:36 PM »
Good stuff Mike. The short twelfth hole at Pine Valley is a great example of this .


We tried to get the players we caddied for to hit it as far off the tee as possible so as to get a good angle to that hole. The green imperceptibly slopes hard front to back and anything hit straight to it allows for a little less precision in the wedge shot.


It’s a great “easy” hole at a pretty tough golf course

Andrew Harvie

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2023, 02:08:43 PM »
I imagine this is why Flynn is still so good and his golf courses continue to play beautifully (if unusually hard considering they're 85+ years old). In my experience, lots of his greens have aggressive slopes working away from the golfer depending on the angle (thinking 2 at Rolling Green or 8 at Shinnecock). It presents a unique challenge because from the inside corners, it becomes very difficult to stop the ball on or get it close, depending on the skill level. He's one of my favourites
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

archie_struthers

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2023, 05:05:45 PM »
 8)


Here , here Drew he is absolutely one of the best !

mike_malone

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2023, 05:17:12 PM »
When we had the US Women’s Am at Rolling Green ,a Flynn, a few years ago I suggested to Brad Faxon in the style of The Graduate that I had one word for him—-Angles. He used it.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2023, 06:53:14 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

jeffwarne

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Re: Greens are what make angles matter most
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2023, 09:22:08 PM »
Most angles of attack don't matter because most greens slope back to front.
If a green slopes from left to right or right to left the angle of attack matters.
A green primarily sloping towards 1:00-5:00 & 7:00-11:00 as on the face of a clock rewards players for hitting particular sides of the fairway.
Peace


True, but less true with green speeds so high less slope is built....
i go out of my mind when some explains to (like i'm five) that a flatter green that's faster plays the same as a slower more sloped green.(if so, why change it?)


Additionally, with a green sloping away, angle of attack matters as one can reduce that factor by playing top one side or the other
Number 2 at Old Barnwell is a great example of this-with a wide enough fairway(if you hit the right club) to utilize such a strategy.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey