Devereux Emmet

[Chris_Blakely]

Blasbe1,

I mean no disrespect to the present course; however, I do not like a lot of what he has done there with respect to what Emmet original did and was known to have done.  I would disagree with you that little of Emmet remained on the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 15th holes.   And anyone who appreciates what Emmet's courses were about would like these holes.  False front bunkering, cross bunkers, peninsula greens (original 9th green).  What do you think about the present state of the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th holes?  Do you feel these bunkers are more maintenance friendly that Emmet's original?  Do you think these bunkers are more Kay or Emmet?

While the putting surfaces are still Emmet in most cases, much of the mounding has been shaved down around the greens which is sad because he often like to have mounding the coincides with significant undulations in the greens!
These greenside moundings have been shaved down to install chipping areas around the greens which was definetely not Emmet.  I know for sure Kay altered the putting surface on 10 as your head GP informed me the shape of the green was circular and had typical mounding around it.

The aerials I have seen and from others I have talked to including your head profesisional, your club original had over 120 bunkers which leads me to believe that the bunkers left of 15 were Emmet in some way.

While the bunkers in 15 may not have been in play, do you not think they make recover from them from errant shots more dificult when one factors in the green sloping away severely from the bunkers.  What about pin positions closer to that side of the green?

[blasbe1]

Chris,

None taken . . . you make some excellent points, I will miss the bunkering down the left of 6 with grass islands in it, truly Emmit.  I hope 8 changes little.  I don't think we touched the shape of 10 green but I'll inquire.  
I also believe that there was a major bunker renovation in the 60s or 70s and will find out how much, if anything was done then.  Unfortunately, I'm heading out but will respond in full later this evening or tomorrow.

Jason

[Chris_Blakely]

Blasbe1,

I have a copy of the club's history and have talked with the head professional and several members I played with.  The layout has changed with respect to where you started and finished. For example, in 1917 the present 8th hole was the first and 7th hole was the 18th.  (If you have a copy of George Thomas' golf course architecture in America, he has a picture of the 7th green circa 1920's.
In the 1920's, the 6th hole became the 1st and the 5th hole became the 18th.

From the people I talked to the land the club lost or gained did not house any golf holes only former clubhouses.  I guess several of them burned down.

As for major changes to greensites, according to the professional and members only the 11th green has been moved and is not Emmet.  This green was located in the swale short of the present green.  There have been bunkers removed and moundings that have been removed.  The 6th green used to have 3 additional diagonal fariway bunkers that extending diagonal back and to the left from the existing bunker that is their in the right rough.  The green used to have larged mounds in front of it similar to the 4th with some different bunkers as well.

The course has some wonderful Emmet greens that show how he liked to couple breaks in the green with mounding around it.  The fourth hole is pure Emmet, if you do not split the fairway on your tee shot, you can not see the green as it is blocked by the large mounds on either side.  It also has two long strip bunkers fronting the green that are very dificult to reover from.  The course has a lot of Emmet quirk still left.

I was told that Hanse and Kittleman have been retained for a long term restoration.

[Chris_Blakely]

Blasbe 1,

Sorry, but my last post was to answer your question with respect to St. George's and how it relates to Emmet's original design.

[TEPaul]

Chris Blakely:

You want me to ask Gil Hanse if he's gonna be restoring St George's? I saw him yesterday out at my place. We had a bunker resolution problem that was something like solving the Middle East Crisis but we got it resolved and Gil got in his dozer yesterday and did the shaping.

Doing golf architecture looks like a ton of fun but not yesterday. I felt sorry for the guy as we dropped him off and he cranked up that open dozer in about 30 degrees with the wind whistling at about 30 MPH for a wind/chill factor I don't even want to think about. The way I smoke I can only last about 10 minutes out there but I bet he was there for a couple of hours pushing dirt around. He does want one of my flasks for Christmas though. Too bad I didn't have a full one to give him yesterday--he probably woulda used it all up!    

[Chris_Blakely]

TEPaul,

Sure, ask Gil Hanse if he is doing the restoration.  I hope for the sake of Emmet's design he is!!

I saw the master plan he proposed at Schuyler Meadows Club and it looks great.  I hope he is able to restore the 11th and the enormous sand bunker with island mounds in front of the green.

[T_MacWood]

Chris
You sure have a wealth of information on Emmet.

IYO what do you think were his top half dozen or so designs (inlcuding those NLE)?

When did Tull join Emmet...and was he a positive or negative influence IYO?

I know Emmet spent a lot of time in the British Isles and I know he was friends with Macdonald...do you think his design style (with a British/quirky touch) was a result more of one than the other (UK/I & Macdonald)?

[Chris_Blakely]

Tom,

1.'What were Emmet's top half dozen designs?'

To be honest, I do not know as much as I would like to about his lost courses; however, I will give his top 10 (considering the present GCGC to be a Travis course with the routing and several greensites Emmet):

1.) St. George's GCC
2.) Leatherstocking GC
3.) Wee Burn CC
4.) Mohawk GC
5.) McGregor Links CC (original course)
6.) Huntington Crescent Club - West Course
7.) Meadowbrook Hunt Club
8.) Congressional CC
9.) The Seawane Harbor Club (original)
10.) Pelham CC

The last couple could be interchangeable, Salisbury #4 (Eisenhower), Pomonk appears to have had some wild greens, Northport had some great holes along the marsh, The powleton Club had/has some wild greens, and to be fair, I have not played Huntington or Congressional.  Also to be fair, I do not know enough about some of his high profile lost designs Queens Valley, Hillcrest, Fenimore, Cooper River, Lawrence Village had some great holes along the water, Old Westbury has some wild bunkering (DW Missing links has a layout off of a scorecard from The Golf House), and I would love to know more about two of what would appear to be his more interesting designs that appear to have little evidence of them left: his estate course Sherrewogue and his Cuban course CC of Santiago (I have seen a picture from an add in The American Golfer).

2. 'When did Tull join Emmet...and was he a positive or negative influence IYO?'

I believe Tull started working with Emmet around 1924 and his odd bunker style (free flowing amoeba-like) started creeping into their designs around 1925.  Positive influence, I am not sure, I like Emmet's bunker style a lot more than Tull and you can see the disparity at Cape Cod CC.  I know that Tull helped move Emmet toward lengthier courses like Huntington Crescent Club.  I am not a fan of Tull's greens a lot larger than Emmet nor his bunker shapes or positioning.  I would have liked to have a little bit more length and the Emmet style (may have helped some of them being lost or built over).  Tull also renovated several original Emmet courses and eliminated alot of that quirk i.e. Pelham, Cape Cod, and I am not sure, but I know he renovated Port Jefferson CC extensively.

3. 'I know Emmet spent a lot of time in the British Isles and I know he was friends with Macdonald...do you think his design style (with a British/quirky touch) was a result more of one than the other (UK/I & Macdonald)? '

I know this site is big on hands-on-experience and I have never golfed accross the pond.  Thus, I can not directly determine the influence.  However, I know they do not mind blindness in their designs and Emmet used it a lot in his designs.  I know in describeing the orginal briar hall main course (BH also have a 9h course) that he said one of the holes was inspired from the Gate Hole at North Berwick (this is from an article in the American Golfer.) I would guess his quirk comes from over there as well.  I wold suspect that while researching famous hole in the British Isles for C.B (who was a member at GCGC and won their club championship one year if I am not mistaken - I know his name is on a plaque for winning something in their clubhouse) that he got a flavor for golf course design and his philosphies and that set him on his path.

[ian]

Chris,

You stated the following about Travis.

"Like others have said previously, he like to have his greens surrounded by mounding"

This is a very common misconception. He did do many large bold mounds for framing, but more often mounding was limited only to small locater mounds large enough to indicate the back corners of the greens. A majority of greens blend out to the surroundings without mounds. Travis is often pigeonholed, and very often by work that was remodelling, his work has more variety than people realize.

[corey miller]

Chris-Huntington CC is clearly better than Huntington Crescent as presently configured.  With all the golf at the Crescent club at one time, they did not do a very good job of picking a final 18.  I believe they also sold off the original building that was the clubhouse which was the Rainey estate.

[Chris_Blakely]

Ian,

I think you have misconstrued what I wrote about GCGC: (please reread with me eliminating pronouns)

 'As for Garden City, I would consider the layout to be Emmet; however almost all fairway bunkering and greensites and bunkering to be Travis.  The greensites at GCGC resemble very little of his(Emmet's) other work.  Like others have said previously, he (Emmet) like to have his (Emmet) greens surrounded by mounding and there is very little of that at GCGC.  The fairway bunkering does not bear resemblence to his (Emmet)  other courses and the DEEP greenside bunkering is something I have not seen in his (Emmet's)  other designs.'

I am know very very little on Travis' designs or philosophies.  All I was saying is that I give much of the strategic credit, and bunkering to Travis and that the present greensites bear little resemblence to Emmet's courses post GCGC. The greensites at GCGC have very little mounding around them as depth perception is a key eliment to the courses strategy. The main hole I would like to know about at GCGC is the one that is no longer there.  The original 12th is absolutely facinating to me and  the pictures in the club leave me wanting a pure restoration more than almost anything else.  I would like to find out who was responsible for the original hole before RTJ eliminated it.

Corey,

Again I also think you misconstrued what I wrote,  if you reread what I wrote earlier, I stated that I have not played Huntington CC and have litlle info on it.  I would love to just be able to walk the site; however, I have been stonewalled in my effort.  Please note this is not a plea for anything; rather, it is a statement of fact.  As for Huntington Crescent Club WEST (the NLE course), I rated the West Course on my list for what I perceive as some terrfic terrain, stategic bunker and something that most Emmet courses lack length and the ability to be lengthened to offset equipment.  Again, the HCC that I rank is the NLE course and I have no information on Huntington CC to compare; thus, I omited it from my rankings.  My rankings are only of Emmet courses I have played or have info on their layouts.  I have played about 28 of his courses and have a course portfolio of his work at about 95 courses counting both new course construction and renovations.

[ian]

Chris,

Reread what you wrote. Sorry I had it backwards. My bad.

On the other side of things, I have enjoyed your notes on Emmet. While Travis mentions him or refers to him in a few writings, I am not familiar with his actual work.

[ChipOat]

Hanse/Kittleman involved with St. George's???

Now THAT would be great.

[Chris_Blakely]

Ian,

After I reread what I wrote, I realized that if was worded poorly.

TEPaul,

Any word from Hanse/Kittleman?