Par five road holes

[Tommy Williamsen]

Dean, How so? Because of the deep front left bunker? The green seems very different. They name the par fourth #8 as the road hole.

[Dean DiBerardino]

Dean, How so? Because of the deep front left bunker? The green seems very different. They name the par fourth #8 as the road hole.

Hey Tommy:

The name for the 8th hole on the score card is "Road Hole". The course profile for Fishers Island on this site has the following descriptions for #8 & #18....

"8th hole, 470 yards; As at the last hole, the closer one drives to the trouble (i.e. the shoreline down the right), the better angle of play one has into the angled green. This half par hole was voted by GOLF Magazine in the 1980s as among the very best in the country. Raynor and his playing angles had a tremendous impact on a young golfer named Pete Dye. For instance, a hole like the 8th favors a fade on the tee ball and a draw on the approach. Pete Dye repeats this ‘switch back’ design on numerous holes throughout his design career."

"18th hole, 475 yards; A thrilling Home hole that replicates the playing angles of the Road hole at The Old Course at St. Andrews, the length of this hole makes it a great half par hole for deciding the match. Instead of railroad sheds, the golfer plays over a finger of East Harbor and further the carry he is willing to take, the better the angle into the elevated green with its dominate left central ‘Road’ bunker along this kidney shaped green."

Both holes play as a par five from the regular tees, so there is a par five Road Hole at Fishers Island (Or maybe they actually have two ). 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Dean, How so? Because of the deep front left bunker? The green seems very different. They name the par fourth #8 as the road hole.

Hey Tommy:

The name for the 8th hole on the score card is "Road Hole". The course profile for Fishers Island on this site has the following descriptions for #8 & #18....

"8th hole, 470 yards; As at the last hole, the closer one drives to the trouble (i.e. the shoreline down the right), the better angle of play one has into the angled green. This half par hole was voted by GOLF Magazine in the 1980s as among the very best in the country. Raynor and his playing angles had a tremendous impact on a young golfer named Pete Dye. For instance, a hole like the 8th favors a fade on the tee ball and a draw on the approach. Pete Dye repeats this ‘switch back’ design on numerous holes throughout his design career."

"18th hole, 475 yards; A thrilling Home hole that replicates the playing angles of the Road hole at The Old Course at St. Andrews, the length of this hole makes it a great half par hole for deciding the match. Instead of railroad sheds, the golfer plays over a finger of East Harbor and further the carry he is willing to take, the better the angle into the elevated green with its dominate left central ‘Road’ bunker along this kidney shaped green."

Both holes play as a par five from the regular tees, so there is a par five Road Hole at Fishers Island (Or maybe they actually have two ). 

Interesting. The road hole never occurred to me when I played it. I guess partly because it was so uphill and the green didn't play like the road hole. Evidently, they see similarities. Thanks

[Bret Lawrence]

I think 18 at Fishers Island does have some aspects of the Road Hole but the green is more of a composite like the 1st at Yale.  18 at Fishers and the first hole at Yale have always seemed like long lost siblings to me:


Fishers Island 18th:



Yale’s 1st hole:



In the write-up of Yale’s golf course in 1925, the author describes the first green as a Road Hole green on the right with a Punchbowl green on the left.


No. 9 at Hotchkiss is a Charles Banks version of a Par 5, Road Hole.  There is no sand in the bunker fronting the green, just a grassy hollow. Hotchkiss’ 9th hole is really overgrown these days and if they could trim up the forest right of the hole, it would bring back more playing options off the tee. As of now, there are very limited options off of the tee.


9th green at Hotchkiss:

[Britt Rife]

Tommy,  I recall you lived for a time in Annapolis and likely played Banks's Annapolis Roads.  The 7th hole there was a par 5 Road Hole. 

[Bret Lawrence]

The McDonald/Raynor designed Links Golf Club had a Road Hole. Number 6 hole, a very reachable in two par 5 with yardage at 453/420/390. Attached is a cropped picture from another GCA post. The outline of the hole goes from left to right. This 1940 aerial shows the hole in its full glory.



Decades later the road on the left of the hole was not visible due to the planting of privet type hedge between the road and the rough. The 1974 cropped picture shown below, again from a GCA post, displays the hedge border. Note by 1974, the aerial shows the loss of play of the two sand bunkers to the left of the green.  By this time, the bunker nearest the green to the left was overgrown with brush and pin oak trees. The outline of a deep pit was evident indicating an abandoned sand trap. The trap further back to the left was not evident at all.



As a caddie at the Links, from the mid 1960s to the early 1980's, this was a relatively easy par five for many of the players.  Securing a par was highly probable as long as you kept your drive in the fairway or at least to the right. Short drives off the tee had players face a second shot that could catch three center sand traps about 70 yards from the green.  The two deep sand traps to the right of the green collected errant shots. Playing out of those traps required a delicate touch to avoid a waste area beyond the green and eventually the abandoned overgrown sand trap pit. The green itself was challenging displaying a false front which was considerably sloped. The undulation back (toward the tees) required a delicate putting stroke to prevent the ball from rolling down into the fairway.  Three putting this green was always a concern.

Pretty sure the 6th at the Links Club was not a typical MacDonald / Raynor road hole template. It is lacking a diagonal hazard to be carried off the tee and a road hole bunker short of the green with trouble long.

The original Road Hole at the Links Golf Club was Hole 18.  No. 6 was only named “Road” because of its location next to the road.  If you look in the earliest aerial (1926?) of the Links you can make out the Road Hole green on 18.  By the next aerial, the 18th green looks like it had been altered.  If you only look in the later aerials, it’s hard to determine 18 was ever a Road Hole green.

[Steve Salmen]

Brett L,


Please correct me if I'm wrong.  I always thought the 4th at Yale was the Road Hole.  The green is pictured in the bottom left corner of the aerial you posted. 


Thanks

[Bret Lawrence]

Brett L,


Please correct me if I'm wrong.  I always thought the 4th at Yale was the Road Hole.  The green is pictured in the bottom left corner of the aerial you posted. 


Thanks

Steve,


You are correct, the 4th hole at Yale is the Road Hole, much like the 8th hole is the Road Hole at Fishers Island Club.  I was just showing similarities between the 1st at Yale and 18th at Fishers Island, because they both likely have two concepts in one green.  In the write-up of Yale, the author makes the point that the greens are so big at Yale that some of them have two concepts in one green, creating more of a composite green or hole.


Sorry for the confusion.


Bret

[Steve Salmen]

Brett,


It has been several years since I was at Yale.  Pl remind me about the first green.  I recall it being two distinct sections but don't remember if there was a big ridge bisecting the right and left halves or an upper an lower tier.  I remember the flag being left, hitting it right, and 3 putting.

[Bret Lawrence]

Brett,


It has been several years since I was at Yale.  Pl remind me about the first green.  I recall it being two distinct sections but don't remember if there was a big ridge bisecting the right and left halves or an upper an lower tier.  I remember the flag being left, hitting it right, and 3 putting.

Steve,


The first green at Yale is two tiers, with the right side of the green being higher than the left side. Here is a photo from the 2nd tee, looking back at the 1st green:



Bret

[Bret Lawrence]

Brett,

 I remember the flag being left, hitting it right, and 3 putting.

Steve,


I think the moral of the story is: If the pin is in the Punchbowl, don’t play it like a Road Hole! 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,  I recall you lived for a time in Annapolis and likely played Banks's Annapolis Roads.  The 7th hole there was a par 5 Road Hole. 

brett, I am sad to say I never played Annapolis Roads. By the time I thought I should, it was closed. Dumb.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think 18 at Fishers Island does have some aspects of the Road Hole but the green is more of a composite like the 1st at Yale.  18 at Fishers and the first hole at Yale have always seemed like long lost siblings to me:


Fishers Island 18th:



Yale’s 1st hole:



In the write-up of Yale’s golf course in 1925, the author describes the first green as a Road Hole green on the right with a Punchbowl green on the left.


No. 9 at Hotchkiss is a Charles Banks version of a Par 5, Road Hole.  There is no sand in the bunker fronting the green, just a grassy hollow. Hotchkiss’ 9th hole is really overgrown these days and if they could trim up the forest right of the hole, it would bring back more playing options off the tee. As of now, there are very limited options off of the tee.


9th green at Hotchkiss:

There are two reasons I didn't think of the road hole on Fishers 18. It is uphill and unreachable for me. I hit a sand wedge for my third shot. Younger guys can reach it, though.