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Michael Chadwick

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Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« on: April 15, 2022, 03:48:58 PM »
Bob Crosby’s conversation with Garrett Morrison on The Fried Egg’s “Masters Takeaways” podcast (https://thefriedegg.com/fried-egg-podcast/takeaways-from-the-2022-masters-4/) had salient points about Augusta’s architectural legacy that I wanted to mention here and open up for broader discussion.


Bob shows his cards early and claims MacKenzie was the “best architect to ever trod the face of the earth,” which helps ground his befuddlement as to why the club would continue moving away from MacKenzie and Jones’s strategic ideals documented in the course’s first iteration.


He then goes on to say, “If the world had continued on as before, I think Augusta National would’ve changed the face of golf architecture for the next couple of decades.” Crosby’s point here is that the Great Depression and WWII had a detrimental effect on not only the MacKenzie version, but the course’s influence on subsequent American designs. It’s an interesting point, although Clifford Roberts remains largely responsible for disavowing MacKenzie’s work as quickly as he could. It’s equally worth acknowledging that, over time, decisions predominantly have indicated that—whether you agree with it or not—changes to the course be in response to professional play and the Masters tournament instead of in deference to MacKenzie. Crosby makes clear the notable exception of Byron Nelson and Joe Finger’s successful restoration of the 8th green, which Roberts had previously pulverized. 


What’s interesting to me is that in our current craze towards restorations and clubs’ reappreciation of original architects’ work, Augusta has become a unique case today. ANGC remains remarkable. Its set of greens rival the best in the world, yet there remain aesthetic and playability differences from 1934’s Masters that could be brought back to better exemplify and preserve the legacy of MacKenzie’s last American course design. Yet ostensibly, the kinds of presentations Gil Hanse has made to Oakland Hills or Baltusrol, where the original architect’s work is the overriding focal point, might not be as successful at ANGC, and I think that discrepancy is why someone like Mayday started his other thread.


One disagreement I have with Crosby’s thesis is his claim regarding the standalone, radical nature of ANGC. He identifies MacKenzie as the originator of a ‘2nd stage’ of golf architecture, one that emphasizes “less bunker placement and more on contour and undulations of the natural terrain.” Augusta, according to Crosby, “was intended as a radical extension of the ideas of strategic golf course architecture unlike anything anybody had seen before,” and should have served a more noticeable role as “the beginning point for a new kind of golf architecture [...] that’s the debt Augusta National owes to golf history.”


In fairness, Morrison is the first person to use the term “radical” in their conversation, which might have planted the seed in Crosby’s mind, but I’d rather consider Augusta as a long gestating culmination of MacKenzie’s work, and a pinnacle example of the unwavering influence The Old Course had on his design ideals, but not a departure of any kind from his earlier designs.


Crosby smartly brings up Max Behr’s Lakeside and MacKenzie and Behr’s aligned philosophies toward strategic architecture as a precursor to ANGC, as well as MacKenzie’s Bayside. But the more I consider MacKenzie’s work, especially American examples Meadow Club, Pasatiempo, and Valley Club, I don’t see much difference from what MacKenzie put in the ground at those other sites, but instead it’s a continuation and refinement of the same architectural ideas he’d always had. Upon opening, those courses all featured expansive fairways and corridors where a wayward ball could be played from different holes, much in the way the Old Course continues to be played. The strategy and defense of playing a ball from an opposing fairway then usually includes a positioned bunker or difficult green contours from that more conservative, safer line of play. MacKenzie’s examples include Meadow Club 2-4, 6&16, 13&15, 9&10; Pasatiempo 1&9, 6&7, 10&17; Valley Club 2&13, 3&12. MacKenzie translated the tenets he derived from TOC into America by recreating open golf, with all turf primarily at fairway height, granting full freedom to the sporting golfer to find his or her way to the cup, defending holes with ground contour, natural features, a distilled amount of bunkering, and challenging greens. MacKenzie’s priority as an architect was designing courses accessible to all levels of play.  His own quote in the Spirit of St Andrews on the golf architect’s duty is lifted almost verbatim from the utilitarian philosopher Jeremy Bentham: “He should, above all, have a sense of proportion and be able to come to a prompt decision as to what is the greatest good for the greatest number” (p. 15).


Would removing significant trees from Augusta make the course easier for the pros? Probably. Are there still ways to thin out areas or remove non original green side bunkers where more recoveries could be experienced on short grass (after all, Scheffler’s hole out runner was one of the shots of the tournaments)? Probably. Could recreating the MacKenzie aesthetic bunkering be done as a step towards rehabilitating the course’s design legacy while not affecting the annual schedule of hosting the Masters? Probably.


All to say, I quite enjoyed Mr. Crosby’s thoughts he shared with Garrett, and the biggest take away I sense in his point of view, and what’s echoed by others on this site, is that making course changes in service to the pros and in the spirit of the original architect need not be mutually exclusive.


Instagram: mj_c_golf

Andrew Harvie

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2022, 03:58:24 PM »
I went to Augusta National for the first time for the final round of the Augusta National Woman's Amateur, and it's pretty easy to see why the green jackets have no interest in restoring the golf course. For me, it's almost exactly what I imagine a perfect tournament golf course is for the highest levels of play (minus a somewhat mundane finish after the first 2/3's of the back nine and the drama it produces).


I'd like to see a golf course try and rival Augusta National if it actually restored the bunkers and corridors, and if they were radical, the 16th with the cool nipple in the middle of the green. I'm not sure if there would be a golf course in the world that could keep up, and in some respects, we should thank the green jackets for letting there be a debate for #1 ;) but because the tournament is flawless, the golf is almost always exciting on the weekend, and the players continue to love it, I don't think it'll change anytime soon. Remember: a centreline bunker on 8 would only upset the players, and why take away from a great tournament with players chirping about a centreline bunker like they do at Kapalua?


My two cents anyway. Yes, it should probably be restored, and also yes, it should stay the same. The answer is far more nuanced than an Oakland Hills, Oakmont, Inverness Club, etc.

MCirba

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2022, 06:26:52 PM »
It will never happen at a place as vested in the status quo as ANGC as Drew mentioned but in a perfect world it can happen at a restoration like Cobb's Creek.  Great landforms, terrific natural hazards, and a genius of a routing only needs restraint by the architect and a thoughtful maintenance meld to facilitate gravity golf that works for all levels of play.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Niall C

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2022, 07:39:39 PM »
Mike


ANGC - vested in the status quo ? If that were true they wouldn't be tweaking the course every year and we'd be looking at something more akin to what was there originally, no ?


Niall

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2022, 07:57:01 PM »
I was supposed to attend The Masters in person for the 3rd year in a row, but... stuff got in the way.


My BIG issue this year was the 16th hole. Somewhere in the archives, I have defended RTJ on occasion, but that hole is really limited to two hole positions???


1) Hit a dart way right to a way right pin.


2) Hit a draw fairly right, or center and let it drift down to the "Sunday Position".


Greg Norman's duck hook and Tiger's chip in, keep this fairly benign hole alive.


And good to hear from Bob Crosby, I will listen tomorrow on the drive back from golf.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2022, 02:02:52 AM »
Am I the only one that thinks the original MacKenzie greens look a bit “awkward”?


Haven’t been there. Could be off the mark.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2022, 02:25:07 AM »
Am I the only one that thinks the original MacKenzie greens look a bit “awkward”?

Haven’t been there. Could be off the mark.

I agree, but I only ever saw pix. I expect at ground level the greens were radical, played awkward, but didnt look awkward. I am fascinated by the shapes and relationship with bunkers. To my eye that old course looked cool.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 02:15:41 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bruce Katona

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2022, 11:48:02 AM »
MCirba:

Your Cobb's Creek project took a jab to the abdomen thrown by the Philly Art Commission the other day; which it too bad.  I'm sure there is much going on behind the scene's for the Commission to come to the public conclusion of denying a concept approval.

[/size]
[/size]I don't think I've ever met Jose Alminana.  Andropogon Associates, the firm he is a principal with, is more on the bugs and bunnies side of the environmental fence then I would typically be and they would likely be a firm I would be working with as a counterpart on a development project. I likely have been in the audience when he's given lectures or been on panels at continuing education seminars.
[/size]
[/size]It's pretty frustrating to spend a large amount of time, effort and fundraising elbow grease to get this far a be stalled.
[/size]
[/size]Best of luck getting this project back on track and constructed.
[/size]
[/size]


MCirba

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2022, 12:07:33 PM »
Niall,


They are committed to the status quo of what they view as presenting a challenging Masters course for their patrons and home viewers.  They do whatever it takes to keep up with that primary goal but that dosen't include radical change back to the Mac original, I'm afraid.


Bruce,


Yes, ironic that the Art Commission bowed to a few vocal locals who seem to prefer 400 acres of unmanaged, formerly overgrown, crime ridden, litter strewn, creek-clogged, drug infested, sewer runoff land than the aesthetic of a world class golf course and community center celebrating the rich multicultural heritage and sporting history of the property.


Wiser heads will prevail.  It isn't like anyone else is rushing to donate 65 million dollars of private money into West Philadelphia for any other purpose.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2022, 12:34:14 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Peter Pallotta

Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2022, 12:50:31 PM »
I have long enjoyed and valued Bob's writing. Two thoughts/questions:
Might it be said that Dr Mac's original Augusta did in fact change the face of golf course architecture, but that it only happened some 60 years later -- starting in 1995 instead of 1935?
Behr (and Dr Mac) had vigorously defended St Andrews-Old 's strategic design against Joshua Crane's criticisms; setting aside TOC, are there many professional championship venues in play today with the kind of strategic width that Augusta still retains?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2022, 12:59:24 PM »
A couple of points from listening to Bob/Garrett and from reading the above.
a) wasn’t an important element of the original ANGC that the course would be ground game orientated? However, after a while they realised that the soil conditions were not suitable for this type of game so changes were made, eg the 7th was originally modelled on the 18th at TOC and as such envisaged to be played mainly along the ground through the imitated Valley of Sin but this style of play didn’t work with the Georgia soil/grass combination so the green was redone and a bunch of bunkers added?
And inter-related ….
b) changes in clubs/equipment and irrigation. Hit it high and land it soft. Not I suspect the way that Mackenzie/Jones envisaged the course, especially approach shots into greens, would be played? And the importance of strategic width and angles of play becomes less important when the approaches, putting surfaces etc become softer and the ball can be hit on a higher trajectory.
Atb
« Last Edit: April 16, 2022, 01:02:00 PM by Thomas Dai »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2022, 02:10:13 PM »
A couple of points from listening to Bob/Garrett and from reading the above.
a) wasn’t an important element of the original ANGC that the course would be ground game orientated? However, after a while they realised that the soil conditions were not suitable for this type of game so changes were made, eg the 7th was originally modelled on the 18th at TOC and as such envisaged to be played mainly along the ground through the imitated Valley of Sin but this style of play didn’t work with the Georgia soil/grass combination so the green was redone and a bunch of bunkers added?
And inter-related ….
b) changes in clubs/equipment and irrigation. Hit it high and land it soft. Not I suspect the way that Mackenzie/Jones envisaged the course, especially approach shots into greens, would be played? And the importance of strategic width and angles of play becomes less important when the approaches, putting surfaces etc become softer and the ball can be hit on a higher trajectory.
Atb


Good points both. Interesting that the original 7th (which still looks awkward to me) was modelled on Valley of Sin. The green shape at least makes sense now.

Niall C

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2022, 06:35:32 PM »
Niall,


They are committed to the status quo of what they view as presenting a challenging Masters course for their patrons and home viewers.  They do whatever it takes to keep up with that primary goal but that dosen't include radical change back to the Mac original, I'm afraid.



Mike


I can't help feeling you are tying yourself up in knots trying to say they don't make changes on a regular basis. Consider this, trees seem to come and go on a regular basis as does the second cut and then there is the ever changing "shore line" of the water features and that is before we get to the greens. Is there a course that basically retains its routing but goes through constant change as much as ANGC ?


Niall

MCirba

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2022, 07:09:29 PM »
Niall,


They are committed to the status quo of what they view as presenting a challenging Masters course for their patrons and home viewers.  They do whatever it takes to keep up with that primary goal but that dosen't include radical change back to the Mac original, I'm afraid.



Mike


I can't help feeling you are tying yourself up in knots trying to say they don't make changes on a regular basis. Consider this, trees seem to come and go on a regular basis as does the second cut and then there is the ever changing "shore line" of the water features and that is before we get to the greens. Is there a course that basically retains its routing but goes through constant change as much as ANGC ?


Niall


Niall,


Not sure if you noticed but I don't argue here any more.  ;)


Seriously, my point is that AGNC seems to think that things like narrowed fairways, tree plantings, lengthened holes are requisite for toughening the course for The Masters.


The idea that they'd go back to Doctor Mac is only a possibility if they became convinced that somehow that would lead to a more challenging course for the Masters and only in our wet dreams is that a reality.


You know that's true, right?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2022, 02:25:31 AM »
A couple of points from listening to Bob/Garrett and from reading the above.
a) wasn’t an important element of the original ANGC that the course would be ground game orientated? However, after a while they realised that the soil conditions were not suitable for this type of game so changes were made, eg the 7th was originally modelled on the 18th at TOC and as such envisaged to be played mainly along the ground through the imitated Valley of Sin but this style of play didn’t work with the Georgia soil/grass combination so the green was redone and a bunch of bunkers added?
And inter-related ….
b) changes in clubs/equipment and irrigation. Hit it high and land it soft. Not I suspect the way that Mackenzie/Jones envisaged the course, especially approach shots into greens, would be played? And the importance of strategic width and angles of play becomes less important when the approaches, putting surfaces etc become softer and the ball can be hit on a higher trajectory.
Atb

ANGC is an enigma. I get the impression it was a goal to make it a ground game course, but even the original design required or more easily rewarded a load of aerial approaches. I always thought the TOC connection was pushed a bit beyond the realty of the situation. With heavy soil relative to links, lots of water and the advent of steel shafts, ANGC was never going to be a ground game paradise.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2022, 10:29:24 AM »
Sean


I think you are basically correct re comparisons to TOC and the ground game. Especially when you consider the elevational changes at Augusta and how many of the greens appear to be located at the top of a fairly steep slope. (let me caveat that comment - never been there so could be wrong)


Mike


If you don't want to argue then why not just admit that the course changes on an annual basis ? IIRC this years iteration featured no second cut, an enlarged pond and changes to a couple of greens. Next years iteration will likely not be a reproduction of the initial MacKenzie version but do you really think there won't be any changes made from this year ?


Niall


 

BCrosby

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2022, 08:34:14 AM »
Peter says, "Might it be said that Dr Mac's original Augusta did in fact change the face of golf course architecture, but that it only happened some 60 years later -- starting in 1995 instead of 1935?"

They cut part of my Fried Egg podcast due to time constraints, but on the cutting room floor is a discussion of that. I think part of what was new about Doak and C&C in the 1990s was a return to ideas MacK articulated in The Spirit of St Andrews, ideas he used at ANGC at the time he was writing the book. As far as I know, Tom Simpson was the first to stress landforms over bunkers in 1928. At ANGC MacK took those ideas to a place no one had dared take them before. That so few remain there is a shame.

Bob
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 09:50:48 AM by BCrosby »

mike_malone

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2022, 08:38:16 AM »
Peter says, "Might it be said that Dr Mac's original Augusta did in fact change the face of golf course architecture, but that it only happened some 60 years later -- starting in 1995 instead of 1935?"

They cut part of my Fried Egg podcast due to time constraints, but on the cutting room floor is a discussion of that. I think that part of what was new about Doak and C&C in the 1990s was a return to the ideas MacK articulated in The Spirit of St Andrews, ideas he embodied at ANGC at the time he was writing the book. As far as I now, Tom Simpson was the first to stress landforms over bunkers in 1928. At ANGC MacK took those ideas to a place no one had dared take it before. That so little of it remains there is a shame.

Bob


Bob’s eloquent and researched remarks are what I felt when I started the other topic. It’s not about hating trees   It’s about loving golfing ground.
AKA Mayday

MCirba

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2022, 08:53:50 AM »

Mike


If you don't want to argue then why not just admit that the course changes on an annual basis ? IIRC this years iteration featured no second cut, an enlarged pond and changes to a couple of greens. Next years iteration will likely not be a reproduction of the initial MacKenzie version but do you really think there won't be any changes made from this year ?


Niall

Niall,

I think we're talking past each other.   Of course there will be whatever changes ANGC feels need to be made to keep the golf course challenging for The Masters.   


But those changes in recent decades have included tree planting, "second cut" growth of rough, hole lengthening, and other fidgets  designed to make it longer, tighter, and less forgiving.   That is the "Status Quo" they are seemingly tied to.   To suggest that they would just spin around and restore to Dr. Mac would be a 180 turn from the direction they've been pursuing in recent decades and I would suggest that it's reasonable to conclude we'll never see that.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Radical Augusta: In Response to Bob Crosby
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2022, 11:36:21 AM »
I have long enjoyed and valued Bob's writing. Two thoughts/questions:
Might it be said that Dr Mac's original Augusta did in fact change the face of golf course architecture, but that it only happened some 60 years later -- starting in 1995 instead of 1935?
Behr (and Dr Mac) had vigorously defended St Andrews-Old 's strategic design against Joshua Crane's criticisms; setting aside TOC, are there many professional championship venues in play today with the kind of strategic width that Augusta still retains?


Peter,


I think the depression era inspired bunker reductions to the bare minimum that affected strategy for good players was and probably still is the driver of most golf course architecture around the US for those 60 years.  At least, I recall a discussion of such when I entered the biz in 1977.  If I tried placing a bunker just for looks that didn't affect the good player somehow (i.e., didn't come into play) it was quickly shot down by my boss, the owner, etc.  Somewhere around the 1980s, the idea of "superfluous" bunkers came back into vogue for photography, awards, etc., but the recessions of 2000, 2006, and 2020 have moved most architects back to the less is more theory for similar practical reasons as what the good Doc faced in 1930 and beyond, where they try to find other than sand hazards ways to influence play for less money, i.e., grass bunkers, green contours, etc.


As always, just MHO, but I think I am right for the most part.  Golf design is certainly a big world with lots of little sub plots over time.


Basing an opinion on what happens with a few architects probably doesn't consider the entirety of the last century!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach