"Must be 14+"

[Anthony_Nysse]

I would need to get the joke before killing you for it…

No one putts on roots. I've seen great roots & dead turf many times.


If you're really pushing ultradwarfs or even poa, some bents hard-Mowing 7-10x a week,(or mow) daily rolling, mowing below .100" most are not going to have roots deeper than a few inches. In many cases, this time of year in FL, roots are 2-3" if you're lucky, but greens play the best.

[John McCarthy]

Some years back I played a course that supposedly was running 14 for a club event that wanted the "US Open experience".  It was pretty miserable for me.  Wedges had to be landed short of the green to hold. Well struck 7 irons bounced off the greens. I putted off the green a lot and made many 4 putts.  I gave up on a few holes.


I did it and the beer was cold afterwards but never again. 

[Jim Hoak]

See the concurrent thread running on transition areas and course conditions that are unbelievably tough in order to show how good a course can be.  Until we get people not to judge the quality of a course by its difficulty, nothing will change. 
I saw somewhere recently--it may have been a Dallas newspaper--a ranking of area courses in order of their slope ratings.               

[David Ober]

I am skeptical that very many people have seen greens running over 14'. I know I never have. The course at which I caddy got the greens up over 13' for an annual event, but said they were very near to killing the greens to accomplish it.


Also, I am very skeptical that there are more than a few courses that would be playable at that speed. I would think it is very near the speed where the ball would never stop. The greens must have some slope to allow drainage, even in the flattest spots.


As mentioned, Lulu would be unplayable. A couple years ago, I played Lulu and Union League at Torresdale. I think Torresdale would have to keep the greens no faster than 11' to be playable.


In my opinion, I truly can never understand the obsession with extremely fast greens. I believe I putt better when they are "quick," which to me means something in the 10-11' range. Anything too much faster and you lose a lot of interesting hole locations, I think.

There aren't very many. 13+ is quite rare.


In Southern California, our (mostly) poa annua greens can be kept ridiculously fast with cutting, light sanding, and rolling in the cool months.


As an example, when I played the California Amateur at MPCC in 2006, I stimped the practice green -- just after it had been watered -- at 13.5. I have stimped Sandpiper in November at 13+ for the Sandpiper Invitational. Saticoy, I have never played, but I would be shocked if they weren't 13+ at certain times of the year for tournaments from all I've heard.


There are a few others, but not that many.

[David Ober]

See the concurrent thread running on transition areas and course conditions that are unbelievably tough in order to show how good a course can be.  Until we get people not to judge the quality of a course by its difficulty, nothing will change. 
I saw somewhere recently--it may have been a Dallas newspaper--a ranking of area courses in order of their slope ratings.             

Different strokes for different folks. I personally like both ends of the spectrum and enjoy the challenge of trying to figure out "the green speed of the day."

[mike_beene]

Any idea what an 11 green becomes if it is a degree or two downhill? Is your measured 11 now a 15 for the downhill putt?

[David Ober]

Any idea what an 11 green becomes if it is a degree or two downhill? Is your measured 11 now a 15 for the downhill putt?

I will report back....

[Jeff Schley]

I am skeptical that very many people have seen greens running over 14'. I know I never have. The course at which I caddy got the greens up over 13' for an annual event, but said they were very near to killing the greens to accomplish it.


Also, I am very skeptical that there are more than a few courses that would be playable at that speed. I would think it is very near the speed where the ball would never stop. The greens must have some slope to allow drainage, even in the flattest spots.


As mentioned, Lulu would be unplayable. A couple years ago, I played Lulu and Union League at Torresdale. I think Torresdale would have to keep the greens no faster than 11' to be playable.


In my opinion, I truly can never understand the obsession with extremely fast greens. I believe I putt better when they are "quick," which to me means something in the 10-11' range. Anything too much faster and you lose a lot of interesting hole locations, I think.

There aren't very many. 13+ is quite rare.


In Southern California, our (mostly) poa annua greens can be kept ridiculously fast with cutting, light sanding, and rolling in the cool months.


As an example, when I played the California Amateur at MPCC in 2006, I stimped the practice green -- just after it had been watered -- at 13.5. I have stimped Sandpiper in November at 13+ for the Sandpiper Invitational. Saticoy, I have never played, but I would be shocked if they weren't 13+ at certain times of the year for tournaments from all I've heard.


There are a few others, but not that many.

David where would you put Lakeside at during the Kelly Cup?

[David Ober]

I am skeptical that very many people have seen greens running over 14'. I know I never have. The course at which I caddy got the greens up over 13' for an annual event, but said they were very near to killing the greens to accomplish it.


Also, I am very skeptical that there are more than a few courses that would be playable at that speed. I would think it is very near the speed where the ball would never stop. The greens must have some slope to allow drainage, even in the flattest spots.


As mentioned, Lulu would be unplayable. A couple years ago, I played Lulu and Union League at Torresdale. I think Torresdale would have to keep the greens no faster than 11' to be playable.


In my opinion, I truly can never understand the obsession with extremely fast greens. I believe I putt better when they are "quick," which to me means something in the 10-11' range. Anything too much faster and you lose a lot of interesting hole locations, I think.

There aren't very many. 13+ is quite rare.


In Southern California, our (mostly) poa annua greens can be kept ridiculously fast with cutting, light sanding, and rolling in the cool months.


As an example, when I played the California Amateur at MPCC in 2006, I stimped the practice green -- just after it had been watered -- at 13.5. I have stimped Sandpiper in November at 13+ for the Sandpiper Invitational. Saticoy, I have never played, but I would be shocked if they weren't 13+ at certain times of the year for tournaments from all I've heard.


There are a few others, but not that many.

David where would you put Lakeside at during the Kelly Cup?

Fastest I ever stimped them was 13ish. Last couple/few years have been 12+, but they get faster as the week goes. My guess is that they were 13+ for the second and third day in 2019, which was they last time they had it. This putt was quite flat and you can see that my partner in the Derby barely touches it.


https://youtu.be/uRm7KYDp-WY