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rgkeller

Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2003, 08:30:28 AM »
HamiltonBHearst,

I have no doubt that your friends at GCGC are all fine gentleman, and their membership criteria etc. is their own business.

But its hypocritical for rgkeller to make ill-considered comments about others stance on the apartheid issue, taking the high moral ground himself, when he's a member of a club which, at least on the face of it, discriminates against certain minorities in society.

I have yet to make any comment about any individual's stance on apartheid.

rgkeller

Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2003, 08:35:11 AM »
Rg,

    I hardly think you should accuse one of having poor reading comprehension. Shall we compare our verbal SAT scores? I think not.

    Instead I believe you were the type who had a bit of trouble with parts of American History. The moral high ground is not my perch, and obviously not yours. It belongs to those who see the benefit of promoting a fair and equal access to all institutions and meritocracy as the process for admission.

   My support for Lee Elder, my praise for the South African players heretofore mentioned, and my critiques of your shallow line of reasoning all are intended to help level the playing field, not continue to tilt it. Asking "who S.A. black people are rooting for and denying Gary Player's efforts at fighting apartheid" accomplishes little but furthering the continued racial rift that permeates our society.

   I don't begrudge you for your belonging to a private club that excludes an entire gender, non-white races and certain religions. That is your choice( and I might well defend your ability to make such choice) and you have voted with your feet. I rest my case.

PS.. Playing or Visiting as a guest does not imply acceptance, just enjoyment of the facilities. Membership is overt and affirmative...and speaks volumes.

Verbal SAT scores aside - comparison you might want to avoid - please use your full powers and recall for us my passage that denies Gary Player's efforts to fight apartheid.

(A hint: Mr. Huntley figured out that I was referring to my age and not Mr. Player's efforts. His verbal SAT score must have been off the charts.)

rgkeller

Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2003, 08:41:40 AM »
rgkeller,

How could you, as a member of Garden City Golf Club, hold the high moral ground on this issue yourself?

What issue would that be?

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2003, 08:45:50 AM »


"membership is overt and affirmative and speaks volumes".

Slapper-I suppose you play golf often with people you think less than highly of.  I have followed this thread and admire your sense of fairness and equity, but I do believe it is hypocritical for people to play and visit clubs that have policies that they deem repugnant.

I belong to a few clubs, some are not as diverse as I am sure you and I  would like but these things do change gradually as our society changes. They are social entities.  That is why I object to Mr. Huntley's question as many would have to answer no no, yet do not have an ounce of prejudice.

It would be nice if a private club were created from scratch that did not have these barriers.

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2003, 09:22:15 AM »


Redanman-Did I play the "race card"?  Are you a little sensitive here?  I do not think I was the one who once questioned your motives for not liking Tiger.  I think it would be nice to create a club based on love for the game that many could also AFFORD.

The race card seems to have been injected by people asking about certain clubs and also by people making grand determinations based on who people have sponsered for membership at there clubs.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2003, 10:00:53 AM »
Hammy's last comment (idea) is a good'un. I say discriminate against the non-respecting ballmark leaving let somebody else rake the bunker inconsiderate assholes that permiate every society and cultures. Taking only the good respecting decent golfers who value the spirit as well as history and other people.

At PG there were two gentleman that golfed together frequently (picked teams so no control) and have not spoken a word to eachother in 20 twenty years. Of course it could've been longer going back to the old country, Italia. ;) Point being, golfing with someone you can't personally stand, is not a factor when golfing. Or shouldn't be. It is between the ears and requires the decency that will lead man out of this selfish cocooon he's spun for himself.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2003, 10:23:46 AM »
Never thought I'd see the day when folks started citing SAT scores - maybe Ran needs to modify the poster profile section. :P

rg -

You certainly have an interesting method of arguing - post questions/comments insinuating questionable practices, and then blame the readers for picking up on the insinuations and objecting to them. Maybe it comes across better in real life rather than online.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

rgkeller

Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2003, 10:32:26 AM »
Never thought I'd see the day when folks started citing SAT scores - maybe Ran needs to modify the poster profile section. :P

rg -

You certainly have an interesting method of arguing - post questions/comments insinuating questionable practices, and then blame the readers for picking up on the insinuations and objecting to them. Maybe it comes across better in real life rather than online.

Well, actually I was curious as to the reaction of South African blacks to the playoff and asked a question in the thread already begun concerning race and the President's Cup.

I was not intending to argue at all, but I do tend to respond to mischaracterizations of my posts and personal attacks.

That's pretty much what I do in person, too.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2003, 10:43:00 AM »
Guess we've all gotten used to people asking leading questions and aren't used to such frankness!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2003, 10:56:18 AM »
CLASSIC!

Reminds me of a tangentially similar story for the great Santa Clara University... One of my buddies is known as "Average Monkey" to a few other guys, because in one class he got a score so low on a test, the teacher said the average monkey typing keys at random would have scored better than he did...  I think he got something like 9 out of 100....

 ;D ;D

TH

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2003, 11:23:05 AM »
What is this "SAT?" I didn't think I was smart, but I is.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

rgkeller

Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2003, 11:31:53 AM »
Mike,

I believe that S.A.T. is an acronym for Sociological Awareness Threshold.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Happy about the Presidents Cup
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2003, 11:50:09 AM »
Just the kind of thread that I find interesting.  And someone taking on Mr. Huntley- what an added bonus!

It would never have occured to me to consider Lee Elder in an official capacity for the President's Cup.  I have to agree with Shivas.  To have appointed Mr. Elder, in my humble opinion, would be an admission that PC (political correctness) and symbolism trump merit and achievement.

I would not have second-guessed Nicklaus if he chose Elder.  However, I do find his reasoning for choosing Sluman- as more of a contemporary of the players- to be far superior than the possible justifications for selecting Elder (possible adverse race-related impact on his career, potential experential bonds with African blacks, and any other reasons with color being the only denominator).

Is it the role of the captain and/or his surrogate to relate to the host or is it to manage the team?  What possible contribution to the U.S. team could Mr. Elder have made?  The team members are hardly the type that beat themselves up for alledged wrongs, real or imagined, that some of their ancestors may have been complicit in a couple of centuries ago.  Would they respond to a "poor me, I've been screwed all my life because I am not of the dominant race" argument?  Probably so, but certainly not in a desirable way.

I suppose that some could argue that whoever picked Nicklaus, and Nicklaus himself, should be chastized for not having selected a more diverse team.  Maybe golf itself should be indicted for not having a more aggressive affirmative action program.  But, how does one modify the scoring system to assure the desired results?

By the way, how many blacks in any capacity were part of the International team whose captain and stars were natives of the "colored" part of the world?

Not that I can bring any level of scholarship to the subject matter as Bob Huntley can and has, but I will put the U.S.'s history on race relations against that of Africa's most any day of the week.  Having travelled fairly extensively through east and south Africa, I love that part of the world, but I am not sanguine about its future.  Colonialism, the whipping boy of the multi-culturalists, is no doubt a factor, but I suspect that it is more of an escape goat.

One only has travel to Nairobi, Joburg, or Harari and know that something very bad is going on.  In the U.S. we bitch about who gets to join which "Top 100" golf club (out of 15,000 facilities); there, many people worry about surviving another day in crime-infested, large lawless areas in those cities.  Countries which previously exported food, are now net importers.  Flight of wealth and, more importantly, talent is all too common.  The infrastucture is falling apart.  Even the world's nicest golfer, Nick Price, is heart-broken and has been unable to visit his native country in years.

There is plenty of blame to go around, but the only outrage and demanded Mea Culpas  are primarily focused on non-blacks, and the U.S. in particular.  The premise of this thread is along these lines, and I don't find it constructive.

BTW, I have always had tremendous respect for Nicklaus and Player, and have no trouble with the ending at all.  It was exciting golf, great drama, and a fine exhibition of sportsmanship.  The course reminded me a bit of a less vertical Black Mesa, and agree with the comment about it being more of a match play venue (like BM).

Adam Clayman-

There is one member at my home club who I refuse to play with.  It is more my problem than his, but life is too short and golf is too important.  I could no longer play a round of golf without saying a word to someone than I could go without breathing.  Perhaps that's why I haven't been able to play a lick for years- the social interaction has become too important.  And maybe too that's why I've thoroughly enjoyed the few gca.com related outings I've attended.