I could do better with a putter

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Recently I told someone the tale of how, playing the Old Course some years ago, I hit two tee shots over the out-of-bounds on the right of the 16th.  'I could do better with a putter,' I said, disgusted with myself.  I took my putter and got a four - three on and one putt.  

The person to whom I told this tale was able to cap it.  His regular golfing partner when he was in the Diplomatic Service in Argentina was Roberto de Vicenzo.  Vicenzo, it seems, had gone round one of the courses in Buenos Aires in 72 strokes using only a putter.

I don't suppose there are many courses on which it would be possible to do this, what with streams, carries over rough, different fairway grasses etc., but it's an interesting prospect for those who believe traditional golf is a ground game.  Apart from one or two holes on TOC where else might this be possible?

[Norbert P]

 I remember Jean VandeVeldt (sp?), after he got a big fat number on 17 at Carnoustie, went back later and played the hole with his putter.  He would have won the Claret if he'd scored what he did with the putter that day.  Hats off to his sense of humour and keeping priorities straight after so much negativism from the press.

[JBStansell]

How about #16 at Cypress Point?  I've never had the pleasure of playing it, but I'll take Alister MacKenzie at his word.  In The Spirit of St. Andrews, he writes:  "I don't think an ideal hole is ideal unless it can be played with a putter," and then he describes a player who bested his opponent on the 16th by taking 4 putts to reach the green, after the opponent had hit his first 2 shots into the ocean.

[Jeff Goldman]

The obvious example is Pinehurst #2.  Basically, the way I was playing when I was there last february, I did use a putter all the way.  No 72 though.

Jeff Goldman

[Bob_Huntley]

Joe,

I think I would give substantial odds against anyone in this group to get down in four shots on the 16th at Cypress Point. In fact I know I could make a substantial living betting against it.

[Jim Franklin]

Bob -

I'll take that challenge. When are we playing?

[RJ_Daley]

I flatley refuse to believe that lore about De Vicennzo.  

[Marty Bonnar]

Count me in on the fourball. Assuming Bob's paying, I'll be happy to wager - let's say - one hundred of your american dollars that I can do it in THREE!!

FBD.

[JBStansell]

Alister says the player "reached" the green in four, not that he holed out in four putts.  Nonetheless, I'm willing to put up the same wager that Alister describes - $200 - just for the opportunity to repeat the feat.  

[JBStansell]

Shivas,

Maybe I could play one ball "straight" and the other with the putter?  The way I hit my driver sometimes, I wouldn't be surprised if the ball played by putter wouldn't be the better one of the two!

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Slag, I saw footage from Van De Velde's outing.  He made a 6 on #18 with his putter, but it wasn't on his first try.  It was more like his 5th or 6th try.

[ForkaB]

Joe

Although my memories are fading, I think I'll go one better than Bob and take a bet that nobody could get to the "fairway" at 16 CPC (i.e. 160 or so yards from the hole) in 4 strokes with a putter, much less hole out in 4.  If he said that, MacKenzie was probably talking about 16 as originally designed (i.e. a 280-yd par 4 with a tee up the hill to the right).  As the hole plays today, wouldn't your first putt from the tee be a ball-buster away from the hole and uphill towards the pathway at the edge of the cliff overlooking the Pacific, with your next 3+ efforts along that samedirt path and precipice, hoping that your ball doesn't hit a stone and carom into oblivion?

PS--as I mentioned in a thread a few months ago, some guy at the Eden in St. Andrews holed in one with a putter at the 150-160 yard 5th

[Andy Levett]

It may depend on the putter. My first putter in the late 1970s, a heel-shafted antique hand me down marked Forgan St Andrews, had almost as much loft as a 2-iron, presumably to get the ball rolling on the woolly greens of golf's golden age  
With the short stock shaft I expect a good player could hit it 160. Put in one of those belly-putter shafts in and you could go straight at the 16th.
Alas I don't know where the club is now, though I think it went to the tip when my parents moved house.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not quite what Mark was thinking when he made the first post, but I played with Gary Player in the 1983 Las Vegas Celebrity Classic.  The low point was me taking a wedge from the fairway front right of 14 green and have him lecturing me loudly about how I should have used a putter.  The whole crowd was stunned.  The lecture continued down the next fariway, with Player making animated hand gestures, just to make sure the crowd knew he was still "helping me."

He used the exact same phrase - "you could have done better (and gotten it that close to the hole) with a putter (instead of my stupid choice to chip it)

[ForkaB]

Andy and redanman

I don't think with my CLAW(tm) grip I would be able to generate enough clubhead speed to make the carry, regardless of putter loft, alas.....

[Bob_Huntley]

Andy,

I don't care what length shaft you have in a putter or what sort of blade you use, you are not going to get on the 16th straightaway.

Rich, lets go into business al la Ladbrokes and make book on this.

[Dave_Miller]

Andy,

I don't care what length shaft you have in a putter or what sort of blade you use, you are not going to get on the 16th straightaway.

 

I have to agree with Bob.  A putter at No. 16 on Cypress would be practically impossible.
Best
Dave

[Mike Hendren]

Putters once had a significant amount of loft and my Dad and I often played a three hole loop putter only.  I remember making lots of bogeys in my early teens.  

I had a blast using my putter at The Old Course, with highlights including my second to ten feet at the tenth and following a power face between the Principal's Nose and OB at the 16th, a putt from forty yards out that curled nicely to three feet.  Let's just say it was one helluva three-putt par

If Trevino can hustle at Tennison Park with a Dr. Pepper bottle wrapped in electrical tape, who knows what can be accomplished with the flat stick.

"If you're any good, you can play with a broomstick." - Journeyman Fred Formanski

Regards,

Mike

[Andy Levett]

Andy,

I don't care what length shaft you have in a putter or what sort of blade you use, you are not going to get on the 16th straightaway.

Rich, lets go into business al la Ladbrokes and make book on this.

Bob
Well, I couldn't do it with a titanium driver/ 3 wood (well, maybe one time in ten, but that's about ten more chances than I'm likely to get ). All I meant was  a good player could legitimately employ  a 'putter' equivalent to a 1 or 2 iron and that would do the trick, no?

[A_Clay_Man]

Shivas- Start cussing me out, again. Sharpen your razor and send the two hongees'  

I was forced to lay-up on my one and only time at the plate. Not that the distance was the issue, it was the line. Burned my chops, too. I kept repeating in my head "lay-up lay-up, what are you nutz?" But we were a team and I had to forgo any selfishness, and listen to sound advice. So, I aimed 15y to the left. Ended up just short of pin high 15y left of the green just in front of the bunker. Trust me, it sucked to do it, but I am a team player.

I also believe a 197 yard carry with a putter is not unimaginable or impossible.

[Doug Siebert]

Even an ordinary putter has about 6 degrees of loft, teed up a bit with a driver stance to catch it a bit on the upswing and the carry should be doable.  I'd take the $200 wager, even if I lose I'd get a chance to play CPC which would be more than worth it.  When I should I make my airline reservations for, Bob?  

I'd even be willing to use a putter of your choice -- I'd prefer it, actually, since I'm not sure the neck of my T-line could survive a full swing intact, and I've had the thing for over 15 years, hate to lose it!

I have to believe in the power of the putter ever since I was playing a game with a friend about 10 years ago.  I don't play for money that often, but this was a once in a lifetime game.  On the 4th hole I was in a trap in a very difficult lie and asked my friend to mark his ball that was a few feet in front of the hole.  He laughs and says he'll give me $100 if I hole it.  So I did.  On the 8th when he was faced with a putt of at least 80 feet I told him I had to give him a chance to win back his money and damned if he didn't hole it.

On the 18th tee I was way ahead of him as he'd increased the stake several times but kept losing so he was down quite a bit, and he offers to play the last hole with a putter, double or nothing for the whole wad.  Sounded good to me, I figured a par wins it for me, a bogey ties, since I didn't think there was any way he could par a 449 yard dogleg left with a putter!  He strokes one 225 right to the middle of the dogleg, another on the edge of the green, two putts for par.  I missed the green with my second and chipped up about 8 feet away but choked it.  I couldn't believe then and still have trouble believing today he was able to do that.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Fascinating reading, but you'll be aware that I wasn't thinking about using a putter to loft the ball.  I was thinking about its going all the way from tee to green along the ground, hence my caveats about streams, carry over rough etc.  When I descended to using the putter on TOC it was just before Easter, April probably.  The rough had not started to grow (not that there is much even in summer) and the tees were the 'proper' ones - those which adjoin the greens.  

Following a comment about Vicenzo, I spoke to my friend who vouches that Roberto did indeed go round one of the Buenos Aires courses (not the Jockey Club) in 72 using only a putter.  Apparently the discussion in the bar had been about those wonderful old competitions when a golfer challenged an archer or rugby player or even a thrower of the ball to get round a course in fewer shots/throws/kicks or whatever.  Vicenzo rose to the bait and earned quite a lot in the process.  There were two bridges to be crossed in Vicenzo's round but no ridiculous carries.  He used a blade putter.

Incidentally this same friend was responsible for getting Vicenzo over to Royal Liverpool two or three years ago to play on the site of his only Major win.  A charity match was arranged with Sandy Lyle and Sam Snead taking on Roberto de Vicenzo and Tony Jacklin in foursomes.  I think it was Snead's last full 18-hole round, although he was allowed a buggy.  It was actually quite a close match because Jacklin was not really firing and, while Snead was erratic to say the least Lyle was stunning, finding greens on par 5s when Snead had hit the ball no more than 130 yards.  Those of us who saw Lyle's 1-iron travel almost 300 yards over the out-of-bounds practice ground to find the 16th green in two were staggered.  The new holes were not in play at this time, the perverse 7th having been altered a few years previously.