Drainage, Design, and a Photo in a Downpour.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I have a lot of questions, and pardon me if I don't know how best to phrase them.

Here's a photo of Tobacco Road from a recent visit (not by me) during a rainy day. Questions are below.




My questions, which again, please allow me some leeway as I really don't have an understanding of this but hope to through some answers to these questions (and any other things people might share).

There is a drain bottom right, but the water doesn't really seem to be flowing into it too quickly.

• What are your first thoughts when you see a picture like this?
• "Should" this green drain better? I mean, it is what it is right now, so I hope you know how I mean this within the confines that we don't live in a perfect world where everything drains perfectly.
• If it "should," how would you do it, and is it the "fault" of the designer to not account for this? If it "shouldn't" drain better, why not? Why is this "okay" or "fine"?
• Is this a situation where the green drained into that drain really well 20 years ago, but maybe via topdressing, etc. it doesn't drain as well now?
• Is this "good design" or "bad design" or is it something that really has no bearing on the "design" of the course? Is it "bad" from a drainage "design" perspective but "good" or "fine" or a non-factor from a playing "design" perspective?
• Even if this isn't "ideal" is it "okay" or is the water collecting there likely to lead to… "bad" things? Maybe more disease, tougher management, more insects or rot or issues with cold weather or occasional/rare frost/snow?

In essence, I'm trying to learn and gauge just how much the architect is responsible for the drainage and/or how that intertwines with how a course plays. I understand that the way the course was designed may have changed over the years, and tens of other things I can't consider or maybe you can't tell from a single photo.

This course, though being near the sandhills, isn't particularly sandy IIRC… or maybe I'm totally wrong and this water will drain through the sand base beneath in 30 minutes, so this whole thing is moot…?

[Mark_Fine]

Erik,
I am not a big fan of using catch basins around greens but that one looks like it is probably functioning just fine.  I don’t know how hard it rained or how long after it stopped that photo was taken but my guess is that green won’t have water on it for long once the rain stops.  If it does, then something changed from when Mike designed it.


Note: If it drained much faster into that catch basin just think where golf balls are going to end up    That is why I don’t like to use them.

[Tom_Doak]

Erik:


The puddles at both ends of the green are the result of topdressing build-up at the greens edge . . . it's very common these days to see a bit of a "ring" around the green where the topdressing has been dragged off by a sand pro with a mat.  Not too hard to fix, if it's a problem.


It's also true that the percolation rate on greens tends to diminish over the years, if aerification and topdressing don't keep up with the production of organic material [which they rarely do].  That can be a problem almost anywhere but the quality of the sand is the major factor.  It's certainly going to show up worse on a punchbowl green like this one.


I did happen to visit Tobacco Road last February, just after a sustained downpour that closed the course for the afternoon.  It's not that rare.  It's likely that having all those native areas washing directly onto the maintained turf has also increased the organic content in the top few inches of the soil over time.  Also, a lot of the surface drainage is directed to a relatively small number of inlets in the fairways and around the greens, and when it rains hard, it's going to be quite soggy around those inlets for a few hours, at least.  But not every site has better alternatives than that.


I'm curious if you went to Pinehurst just after this, like I did, and how everything was draining there.  It seemed to me that the more recently-renovated courses had the most drainage issues, rather than the fewest.  It's almost as if running huge equipment over the ground is not the best thing for drainage!

[Ronald Montesano]

BAM! School is in session. I just learned a lot.


Thanks, Erie Erik and thanks, Marvelous Mark and Tom Terrific.

[Robin_Hiseman]

You can also see how the higher height of cut of the green collar acts as a dam wall to the water that has flowed easily over the tightly cut green. It may still be falling, but friction slows the flow.

[Peter Pallotta]

I appreciate the facts and insights from the professionals, but can I ask a simplistic question?

The green complex looks to me like a bathtub. Doesn't that shape have anything to do with the drainage issues?

[Tom_Doak]

I appreciate the facts and insights from the professionals, but can I ask a simplistic question?

The green complex looks to me like a bathtub. Doesn't that shape have anything to do with the drainage issues?

Absolutely.  (As I mentioned at the end of my second paragraph.)


Some architects avoid such green shapes altogether because of the potential for drainage issues, but you can do it if you’re cognizant of how big an area drains to the same spot.  If there’s a curb on the path behind the green to intercept surface drainage, then there’s not too big an area draining onto the green.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Looking at this on my phone the other day, I didn't scroll to see the catch basin on the right side.  IMHO, that is too close to the green.  I had an associate who used to put them close to greens.  We all took a field trip (i.e., played golf but looked around) to see what seemed to be an appropriate minimum distance from the green for such catch basins.  My opinion is at least 15 feet off the surface, for both play and visual reasons, and that looks a lot closer.


All the professional comments above are right on, again, IMHO.  My only addition is that in most cases, catch basin size is the limiting factor in how fast it drains, and most of us prefer the smallest CB possible, especially around the greens.  Thus, many are too small, especially on punch bowl greens like this one, and often in areas where soggy turf might reduce chipping options.


Not sure what is out there now, but in the old days, if you had bent greens and bermuda slopes, you never wanted to let that much slope wash down on the green, because certain chemicals you could use on Bermuda would kill the bent.  If everything is Bermuda, it's a little better, but whenever I have done it, supers report drainage problems after a few years, so a Dell Hole type green, as neat as it is, probably isn't really practical long term.


I will say that a common counterpoint to a lot of water running on your green is to make sure the surface drainage is stout, and I do think the gca got that right.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, T
I did notice your mention of it, but it was at the end of your 2nd paragraph (after top dressing and percolation) and the other pros mentioned catch basins and grass types etc, which is to say:
If I'd asked my question in a more straightforward and simplistic way, it would've been:
Is the bathtub shape the main reason for the standing water?
Did function take a back seat to form here?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Did function take a back seat to form here?

That's a better way of asking one of the questions I was trying to ask in the OP. Thank you.

[Mike_Young]

Thanks, T
I did notice your mention of it, but it was at the end of your 2nd paragraph (after top dressing and percolation) and the other pros mentioned catch basins and grass types etc, which is to say:
If I'd asked my question in a more straightforward and simplistic way, it would've been:
Is the bathtub shape the main reason for the standing water?
Did function take a back seat to form here?

This is an example of where you know there will be a problem when you do it.  The CB pipe is determining your time needed to drain.  A signature can do this and get by with while another lesser known would find it being used in lectures as how not to do it...JMO

[Mark_Fine]

I said this here many times, it is really cool especially as an architect, to watch golf courses drain during a heavy rain storm.  It is amazing what you can learn (it is also great for learning how putts will break on greens).  Just don’t go out when it is thundering and lightning. 


Classic architects all surface drained their greens and few if any used catch basins around them.  I recently played a fairly high end new course that had steep runoffs and all the balls would run into the basins.  Nothing more frustrating for a golfer.  Not only does it create ruling issues where to drop but those areas get beat up with divots from golfers trying to chip back from the same area onto the green.  [size=78%] [/size]