[Andrew Harvie]

This is a really good read about the state of restorations in Canada from my friend Zachary Car. Tom Doak and others have talked about the end of the restoration era in the USA, but up here, we see there's lots to do still. We have numerous Stanley Thompson's, A.V. Macan's, a unique Travis/Alison collaboration, a couple Willie Park's, Donald Ross, hell, even Alister Mackenzie that we could see restorations greatly improving with some good work. There are some logistical issues, of course, but we have the architectural talent... we just need one golf course to take the gamble.


I'll stop explaining the article and let it speak for itself.


https://beyondthecontour.com/a-little-ditty-about-renovations-restorations-and-the-lack-thereof-in-canada/

[Tim Martin]

I don’t think that the hoped for “restoration revolution” will begin with or evolve from a public golf course. If it happens it will take a members course to springboard the movement mostly because of money. Finally I would think that the golf scene in Canada is fully aware of what has taken place under its southern border so the idea that a specific project will get things started is suspect from my perspective.

[Andrew Harvie]

I don’t think that the hoped for “restoration revolution” will begin with or evolve from a public golf course. If it happens it will take a members course to springboard the movement mostly because of money. Finally I would think that the golf scene in Canada is fully aware of what has taken place under its southern border so the idea that a specific project will get things started is suspect from my perspective.

Tim, are you Canadian? The difference is, golf in Canada has always been heavily influenced by public golf. Banff Springs and Cabot Links are two of the particularly noteworthy golf courses that changed the course of golf in Canada, and aside from Toronto Golf Club, possibly the two most important designs I can think of. Where the US had a bunch of younger guys get on the board at their clubs because they listen to architecture podcasts and read, Canada has not had that and it is still primarily governed by the old boys club. You are drastically overrated Canadian golfers IQ level, though it feels like we are on the precipice of potentially seeing some really interesting work done.

[Tim Martin]

I don’t think that the hoped for “restoration revolution” will begin with or evolve from a public golf course. If it happens it will take a members course to springboard the movement mostly because of money. Finally I would think that the golf scene in Canada is fully aware of what has taken place under its southern border so the idea that a specific project will get things started is suspect from my perspective.

Tim, are you Canadian? The difference is, golf in Canada has always been heavily influenced by public golf. Banff Springs and Cabot Links are two of the particularly noteworthy golf courses that changed the course of golf in Canada, and aside from Toronto Golf Club, possibly the two most important designs I can think of. Where the US had a bunch of younger guys get on the board at their clubs because they listen to architecture podcasts and read, Canada has not had that and it is still primarily governed by the old boys club. You are drastically overrated Canadian golfers IQ level, though it feels like we are on the precipice of potentially seeing some really interesting work done.

Drew-I live in the U.S. in New England. I wasn’t aware that the ratio of public to private courses was that skewed in favor of the public model in Canada. If my source is correct only 10% are private. Banff and Cabot are both resort courses with stay and play options so I don’t know if they are representative of the public golf scene in Canada. Regardless I hope the restoration movement takes hold as the article you cited makes clear there are plenty of worthy candidates.

[Tyler Kearns]

Drew,


The restoration of Canada's lone Mackenzie course will start as soon as the snow melts here in Winnipeg with rock being done by Jim Urbina.  At my old firm, we put together a restoration master plan for Ross' Pine Ridge, while right next door, Prichard did similar for Elmhurst.  Both courses are slowly chipping away at the work.  I am currently working at Glendale to restore the style and location of Thompson's bunkering. 


Tyler

[Wayne_Kozun]

I don't know that I totally agree with the article.  Have all of the classic courses in Canada been renovated? No, but I don't think that's the case in the US.
Sure, it would be great if Banff and Jasper could get major renovations/restorations, and I really hope that happens.  Highlands Links has had a fair amount of work done by Ian Andrew, but it would be great if they could get a lot more work done, and on a consistent basis.
But the classic private courses in the Toronto area have had substantial renovations.  You mention TGC, HGCC is being done right now.  St Georges, Scarboro, Weston, Summit, etc have all had major renovation work done.  Mississauga has had tons of work done but I don't what it was like in the past - I hear it was more of a redo than a renovation/restoration. But you could argue the same with many classic US courses including ANGC.
I also think that we will see more work in the near future as clubs are now flush with members and cash.  For the last 15 years or so many clubs didn't have the financial resources to take on a big project and assess their members.  Now they do - thanks to Covid.
The biggest risk to golf in Canada is the real estate bubble in places like Vancouver and Toronto.  That is taking out courses here in the GTA and we will lose Shaughnessy in 2033 years when their lease expires.

[Andrew Harvie]

I don't know that I totally agree with the article.  Have all of the classic courses in Canada been renovated? No, but I don't think that's the case in the US.
Sure, it would be great if Banff and Jasper could get major renovations/restorations, and I really hope that happens.  Highlands Links has had a fair amount of work done by Ian Andrew, but it would be great if they could get a lot more work done, and on a consistent basis.
But the classic private courses in the Toronto area have had substantial renovations.  You mention TGC, HGCC is being done right now.  St Georges, Scarboro, Weston, Summit, etc have all had major renovation work done.  Mississauga has had tons of work done but I don't what it was like in the past - I hear it was more of a redo than a renovation/restoration. But you could argue the same with many classic US courses including ANGC.
I also think that we will see more work in the near future as clubs are now flush with members and cash.  For the last 15 years or so many clubs didn't have the financial resources to take on a big project and assess their members.  Now they do - thanks to Covid.
The biggest risk to golf in Canada is the real estate bubble in places like Vancouver and Toronto.  That is taking out courses here in the GTA and we will lose Shaughnessy in 2033 years when their lease expires.

Wayne,


Canada is much bigger than the GTA


But we have to be crticial here. This is why we're in this situation.


Yes, most clubs have had work done, but even still, Weston is still looking at a true restoration, and Summit probably could use a restoration even if it is still good. Mississaugua used to be really cool in aerials. More Ross than Thompson.


I'll speak on Zach's behalf when he wrote the article with places like Manoir Richelieu, Lambton, Royal Mayfair, Ottawa Hunt, Montebello, Pine Ridge, even a place like Royal Colwood in mind. There are lots of examples. Is it necessary or even feasible to restore every golf course in Canada? Of course not. But given the architecture pedigree that worked in Canada, I should not be having people in my Twitter DM's talking about "Canada does not have the quality of golf for a Top 100 list"  when we're in the top 5 of the most golf courses in the world.


Even at your club Wayne, we need to be critical. Scarboro is very good and pretty close to aerials I've seen, but if dialogue about restorative efforts was alive when the club was fighting about the 4th hole, would it still look like it does, or would it have been put back? We are simply trying to open up perspective. We are a ways behind how progressive the USA is.

[Jaeger Kovich]

 Manoir Richelieu,

This one please!!!

[Ian Andrew]

I struggle with this a little, because there's lots of restoration work that's been done.


Yes there are glaringly obvious places where courses need to be done like Royal Mayfair or Montebello. Hell, even Banff Springs is starting to make me cringe. But you have a lot of places like Highlands Links, St. George's, Kawartha, Cataraqui, Jasper Park, Toronto Golf, Cherry Hill, Lookout Point, Capilano, Calgary, Scarboro etc. that have seen significant restoration efforts and are really wonderful examples of the original architecture. In theory Hamilton should join that list.


There was a lot of restoration work done from 1994 to 2008. There's just not a lot being done now. It reflects more on the time we are in where restorations are far less popular than they were in the late 1990's when the idea took off in Canada. We have a few really good ones about to happen.


My 2 cents...

[Tim_Weiman]

I struggle with this a little, because there's lots of restoration work that's been done.


Yes there are glaringly obvious places where courses need to be done like Royal Mayfair or Montebello. Hell, even Banff Springs is starting to make me cringe. But you have a lot of places like Highlands Links, St. George's, Kawartha, Cataraqui, Jasper Park, Toronto Golf, Cherry Hill, Lookout Point, Capilano, Calgary, Scarboro etc. that have seen significant restoration efforts and are really wonderful examples of the original architecture. In theory Hamilton should join that list.


There was a lot of restoration work done from 1994 to 2008. There's just not a lot being done now. It reflects more on the time we are in where restorations are far less popular than they were in the late 1990's when the idea took off in Canada. We have a few really good ones about to happen.


My 2 cents...

Ian,


Curious about “restorations are far less popular”. Can you share your thoughts on why this is so?


Thanks.

[Andrew Harvie]

I struggle with this a little, because there's lots of restoration work that's been done.


Yes there are glaringly obvious places where courses need to be done like Royal Mayfair or Montebello. Hell, even Banff Springs is starting to make me cringe. But you have a lot of places like Highlands Links, St. George's, Kawartha, Cataraqui, Jasper Park, Toronto Golf, Cherry Hill, Lookout Point, Capilano, Calgary, Scarboro etc. that have seen significant restoration efforts and are really wonderful examples of the original architecture. In theory Hamilton should join that list.


There was a lot of restoration work done from 1994 to 2008. There's just not a lot being done now. It reflects more on the time we are in where restorations are far less popular than they were in the late 1990's when the idea took off in Canada. We have a few really good ones about to happen.


My 2 cents...

Admittedly, there could have been MORE acknowledgement of the progress already made from architects like Jeff Mingay out west, yourself, and more.


I'm looking forward to the next chapter in golf in Canada, and what's next for you!

[Philippe Binette]

Maybe there are reasons why there are very few complete restoration in Canada


1- the season is short 5-6 months... and Canadians love their golf...so it's hard sell to say: ok club members, you won't see your course for 20 months...
So unless you have a 27 or 36 holes facility... good luck..


2- club members have often few alternatives if their course is closed, not like in many US cities where an equivalent club is 20 minutes away


3- due to the short season, your budget is tighter.. buying a mower for 6 months of action or 12 month is the same retail price !!


4- given what some well-regarded Canadians architects have done to some classic courses... some would rather leave the course alone

[Ian Andrew]

Curious about “restorations are far less popular”. Can you share your thoughts on why this is so?

I see designers taking a lot more latitude taken with the original designs in the last 10 years.
Rather than restoration, most use a hybrid approach.

Keep what's universally regarded.
Take greater latitude with the overlooked holes on the course.
Since the new work is made to look like the original work, they are still received as a restoration.

Hybrids became more popular with the success of the Cal Club.
It has influenced a lot of designers to think about taking more latitude with lesser sections or lesser holes.

Attitudes about restoration ebb and flow at clubs depending on what their neighbors are doing.

[Tom_Doak]

I see designers taking a lot more latitude taken with the original designs in the last 10 years.
Rather than restoration, most use a hybrid approach.

Keep what's universally regarded.
Take greater latitude with the overlooked holes on the course.
Since the new work is made to look like the original work, they are still received as a restoration.

Hybrids became more popular with the success of the Cal Club.
It has influenced a lot of designers to think about taking more latitude with lesser sections or lesser holes.

Attitudes about restoration ebb and flow at clubs depending on what their neighbors are doing.

Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing, in general?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Maybe there are reasons why there are very few complete restoration in Canada


1- the season is short 5-6 months... and Canadians love their golf...so it's hard sell to say: ok club members, you won't see your course for 20 months...
So unless you have a 27 or 36 holes facility... good luck..


2- club members have often few alternatives if their course is closed, not like in many US cities where an equivalent club is 20 minutes away


3- due to the short season, your budget is tighter.. buying a mower for 6 months of action or 12 month is the same retail price !!


4- given what some well-regarded Canadians architects have done to some classic courses... some would rather leave the course alone

I have to agree with this, and I would say that many private clubs weren't in a position to devote a lot of financial resources to a renovation as many were low on membership numbers.  And since Covid has hit tee sheets are completely full from the day that the course opens (which has been late in 2020 and 2021 due to Covid restrictions, at least in Ontario) until well into fall.  Members had no appetite to have the course closed.  That being said there was some more minor work done last year - Coppinwood redid their bunkers.

[Mike Baillie]

An interesting discussion.  I agree a lot with the recent comments of Ian, Wayne and others.  In terms of Tom's question unclear to me if good or bad except that is how it is.

Architects taking some latitude. The club I belong to is doing bunkers with some new tees and more while replacing the original irrigation system.  Not fully clear how much of what done so far Doug Carrick's  ideas or the two members leading the project.  For sure little thought of restoring or keeping the character of what Ian did 15 years ago or Rene M originally.  The thought is their view of better not restoration.

Those of us that are golf course architecture buffs the minority by far.  Some of us at St Andrew's East have played at Senior Invitationals at unique courses like Scarboro, Lookout or St Thomas.  Most think they are goofy and don't really appreciate what those of us on here or readers / listeners of The Fried Egg or the like, 'get'.  They like Brantford or Sunningdale more.  I have only played Toronto Golf after the restoration and think it wonderful.  A reasonable number of their members don't like the cross bunkers.  A better perspective for the Americans.  Over 3 years, 12 guys from our club have gone to Forest Dunes.  At most only 1-2 others beyond me appreciate The Loop to a degree close to the original Forest Dunes.  One year we went to Arcadia Bluffs and most thought one of the best courses they had ever played.  The next year we played Arcadia South. The same two that liked The Loop liked Arcadia South but no one else.  In fairness, most of the others don't know who CB MacDonald is nor an Eden/Redan.

All of these very passionate golfers and many have a lower score than I at the end of a round.  They appreciate manicured conditioning and other things much more than I. My sense is that most clubs have that as their norm especially in the younger age groups - I'm 65.  So then who is going to fund real restorations in large quantity?  We don't have many 18 hole plus facilities and 2 less with York Downs closed and Sunningdale I believe heading from 36 to 18.  Also, in the short term, members want to play their course especially with reciprocals limited.

Finally, I can't wait to play Hamilton in late 2023 or early 2024 when the Colt restoration fully complete.

[Kyle Casella]

Interesting that the article suggests letting Andy Staples go wild but doesn't mention Mount Bruno, where he is currently engaged. It remains to be seen how much of the plan they will actually implement. I think Tom Doak was also out there a couple of years ago and gave them some suggestions. Hopefully heavy tree work, bunkers, green size restoration, and moving the 12th green back to the original location  . It's a special place with an amazing routing and outstanding greens and could be elevated so much with a thoughtful restoration.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I think Bruno is a hidden gem.  But like TGC, it seems to shun the raters and doesn't play that game.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()