[Tommy Williamsen]

The first time I played Ballyhack the elevation change stood out. The vertical rise on numbers 1 & 5 were pretty dramatic. When I walked off 18 at Reddish Vale, 1 at Southerndown in Wales, and 11 at Roaring Fork I wondered if the rise was a bit too much. In fact, there are many courses in the CO mountains that must deal with extremely hilly sites: Keystone (River) and Red Sky Ranch (Norman).
How do you route such courses and how much is too much of a good thing?

[Jaeger Kovich]

I was just working on a routing for a new par3 course that has some steep bits... Blindness is one the biggest issues with steep sites. You aren’t gonna see the green surface if there is more than about 15-18 ft of rise on a 100-150 yrd approach (3ish %) and there is downhill blindness too, plus getting the ball to stop rolling.


With those things to consider, How do you find a ton of variety unless you find a way to go side slope sometimes too?

[Ben Hollerbach]

So much of this depends on acuteness of the rise.


I've seen nearly vertical 10-12' banks at the face of a green on a short par 5 that felt appropriate and I've seen 400' holes climb more than 100' from tee to green that played without issue.


Then you have the cliff hole at Dornick Hills that is viewed by many as being a heroic obstacle. How tall is that cliff edge? maybe 40' tall.


In general the amount of vertical rise has to correspond to the club put in the players hands, their visibility over the obstacle, and the danger around the landing area. If lofting the ball over a large object can be done by most and the risk related to the shot is equitable to the difficulty of the shot, then I think it's fair game. The Klondyke and Dell at Lahinch might be 2 good examples of that being balanced well.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tough question. If its coming down then you really could have a lot of fall, but going up a 30 metre elevation will make you puff like a choo choo train over 150 yards. The 1st of Painswick has that sort of elevation change and most would agree it is too much. A 30 metre elevation change over a 300 yard hole is not so bad, but it is difficult to find real love for holes with that sort of elevation (upwards) change. By contrast the 4th hole is about a 15 metre elevation change over the 300 yard and is acceptable in my opinion, so 1:20 can make a good hole, but 1:10 is very hard. Par 3 holes are often best to 'get up the hill'.


You get 50 metre changes on course that are mainly buggy courses, not quite so bad in a buggy but hell to walk.


When I plot a routing I put the vertical heights onto an overlay and I am looking at trying to have single numbers (+9 metre change or less) between shots or walks. If I go double digit then it is a flaw. If I ever designed anything in Southern Spain I expect I would have lots of flaws!


As mentioned elevation changes can create blindness both up and down, just because something is below does not mean you can see it

[Thomas Dai]

Samples-

England - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51629.0.html
Wales - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69978.msg1682782.html#msg1682782

Not sure anyone would build a course on slopes like the two above these days. Maybe someone might like to but even on private land would the H&S etc authorities allow them?

As to Spain - here’s one that’s great fun, a total blast, but unwalkable - must have been an amazing (if somewhat scary) construction job -
Spain - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60409.msg1430213/topicseen.html#msg1430213

Atb

[Jeff Schley]

Too much vertical rise, probably can measure in the average heart rate for someone walking for a persons health. Then you have the playability as a golf hole. We always talk about making use of the land and demonize Fazio and others who move too much dirt, so in order to stay true to that one couldn't move much and still have to make due of the land given.

Some extreme uphill holes I recall are 17 at Essex County Club where you actually go up twice. Blind shots twice almost really for you can't see the end of the fairway either from the tee. I recall walking vertical to the green gasping for a while hoping I wasn't having to putt first. If if was a continuous uphill climb it would be a dog, but you hit your approach from relative flat areas.

Another is Cathedral Lodge in Australia. There is a very short par 4 which goes up then up and up some more. Carts there are the norm so can't imagine walking that hole. Even the cart couldn't get traction with dew or wet grass it was so steep. That wasn't a hole I would have built or enjoyed.

Some I have enjoyed which seem to be just right are the 18 at NGLA and a under the radar course called Big Run in Lemont, Illinois where 18 is an uphill finisher.

A hard proposition on uphill holes is probably constructing the bunkering to last as the low point of the bunker I would think could just wash away.

[Carl Rogers]

Is there an objective measure to this problem?


What is the average height and carry of a 12 handicapper's 8 iron shot?

[Jim Sherma]

Big uphill stuff really hurts lower club head speed players. Ballhack’s 5th is very brutal if you can’t hoist a shot straight up in the air with something more than a wedge or 9. Some of the older good players I’ve taken there just didn’t have that shot. I love elevation changes but I get that they are not great for the everyday play of players with less than fast swing speeds.

[Scott Warren]

Per Tom Doak:


What grade is the 11th fairway at Pasatiempo?


Add 1%. That’s too much. 

[Sean_A]

It's more than just grade of the climb. Other factors such as coming late in the round, is it an isolated incident, how tough a walk is the rest of the course, size and style of greens etc. I know it when play it. 1 at Painswick and 18 at Reddish Vale are OTT. I don't think Cleeve Cloud has any OTT climbs, but as a package it's a bit too much. Royston is out of control. Church Stretton unusually doesn't have any OTT climbs, but it does have a few stupid downhillers, the better of the two evils I spose. Welshpool is a bit more OTT than Cleeve Cloud.

But, my perspective is that TOC and Deal have ideal land for golf. Minimal elevation change, but humpty fairways which create the ball flight issues.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Loads of different types of climbs people are assuming from this thread.


Generally speaking, you need a generous landing zone at not much more than 10% so the ball can hold somewhere in the fairway. Holes can go straight up… or down then up a steeper approach incline… or flat then steep… or, or, or…


I can live with just about anything in the spirit of adventure if it seems the obvious and only way to tackle a natural obstacle (e.g. large dune ridge).

[Adam Lawrence]

I was once in Switzerland and played the nine hole Realp course, really high up close to the St Gotthard Pass. It was built by locals, including the skiing champion Bernhard Russi, and it is the most severely sloped course I've ever seen. To the extent that the hole boards on the tees had the elevation change of the hole, as well as its length, on them. Three or four holes that went either up or down more than 50m but were no more than 300m long. It was quite a workout!

[Thomas Dai]

Consider for a while the severity of the terrain some courses built 100+ ago were laid out over and then consider the clubs, balls, footwear and clothing folks of the time were using to play them. Would folks today even take up the game if they were faced with such courses and such equipment?
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Per Tom Doak:


What grade is the 11th fairway at Pasatiempo?


Add 1%. That’s too much.

IIRC, the 11th at Pasatiempo is 90 feet uphill -- about 40 feet to the end of the fairway, and then 50 more from there up to the green after you get over the ravine.  It's deceptive because of the ravine.  There are a couple of holes at Stone Eagle that play uphill a similar amount, because I knew that the hole at Pasatiempo worked -- plus, with the mountain as the background, you don't feel like you are playing to the horizon. 


But, as Jaeger points out, the green is going to be blind on a hole that plays so far uphill, so you've got to decide how to deal with that.  We managed to come up with five different ways to address that for Stone Eagle [holes 2, 5, 10, 14, and 17].

[Tommy Williamsen]

I knew there were some uphill climbs at Stone Eagle, but would never have guessed it was around 90 feet. That is a lot.

[Tom_Doak]

Then you have the cliff hole at Dornick Hills that is viewed by many as being a heroic obstacle. How tall is that cliff edge? maybe 40' tall.

I asked Blake Conant who is running the project at Dornick Hills to check the topo map on this.  The green of the 16th is 25 feet above the base of the cliff, but the ground rises up from the fairway to that point, so the approach shot is more like 35-40 feet uphill.


The par-3 4th is also 35 feet uphill.

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