Why was Torrey Pines a swing and a miss?

[Sean_A]

Pietro

I don't know how an opinion on golf architecture can't be subjective, but yes, I agree, discussing the quality of courses is a bit unsatisfactory. I am becoming worse at condensing grades. That is partly to do with actually looking at what exists rather than for what I want to see. But I also don't (subjectively 🙂) think there is a huge disparity in quality once we make allowances for the very best and worst. The disparity mainly exists between my likes and dislikes. Best and worst has become increasingly meaningless in my world of golf. These days I am much more about interesting, unusual, clever, fun, surprising etc. Best doesn't make sense when using these adjectives.

I don't know how any of that adds up in relation to Torrey Pines. I have never been much interested in the course, but I may think differently if I was raised in southern California.

Ciao

[Tim Leahy]

Tim, I'm a jerk, so what does it matter what my opinion is.  Tell me what you love about TPS and why you think it should be in the Open rotation.

TPS should be in the rotation for the US Open forever because it is a truly public golf course and doesn't exclude anyone, cart riders, walkers or any schmo who shows up and puts his name on the list.
 Location is awesome for TV or players. Ocean views are spectacular and ocean breezes feel great and are a playing element.
 Kikuyu grass is fairly unique and provides severe penalty for missed shots as required for an Open. Course is well bunkered. I can't remember more professionals playing from fairway and greenside bunkers.
 Greens require accurate shots to specific areas or balls will roll away leaving long putts.
 18th hole is a great finisher requiring strategy in order to score and has a risk/reward element.
 3, 4, 8, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17 and 18 are all memorable holes especially if you have played there which EVERYONE can.
13 players under par after 3 rounds with multiple major winners and future major winners in the top 13.
What do you want? I can't remember a single hole from Winged Foot. Of course I haven't played there and couldn't play there if I wanted to.

[Bill Gayne]

Tim, I'm a jerk, so what does it matter what my opinion is.  Tell me what you love about TPS and why you think it should be in the Open rotation.

TPS should be in the rotation for the US Open forever because it is a truly public golf course and doesn't exclude anyone, cart riders, walkers or any schmo who shows up and puts his name on the list.
 Location is awesome for TV or players. Ocean views are spectacular and ocean breezes feel great and are a playing element.
 Kikuyu grass is fairly unique and provides severe penalty for missed shots as required for an Open. Course is well bunkered. I can't remember more professionals playing from fairway and greenside bunkers.
 Greens require accurate shots to specific areas or balls will roll away leaving long putts.
 18th hole is a great finisher requiring strategy in order to score and has a risk/reward element.
 3, 4, 8, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17 and 18 are all memorable holes especially if you have played there which EVERYONE can.
13 players under par after 3 rounds with multiple major winners and future major winners in the top 13.
What do you want? I can't remember a single hole from Winged Foot. Of course I haven't played there and couldn't play there if I wanted to.

Tim,


You and I couldn't been on more opposite ends of the spectrum as to TPs worthiness as a US Open venue. What you've identified doesn't get it there for me. It lacks the strategic brilliance of other US Open venues such as Shinnecock, Merion, and Pebble Beach (public), or the brutish strength of places like Oakmont, Bethpage (public), and Baltusrol. It doesn't have green complexes such as Pinehurst (public) that provides plethora of options for players to show why they have the best short games in the world. It's a really high bar.


I thought the Women's US Open at Olympic was fantastic and the course architecture was a big contributor with the reversed cambered fairways. The short 18th hole at Olympic with the deception off the tee of being a very narrow drive while actually providing an ample landing area for a well struck shot. It's ok if players have to pick a club on the tee rather than automatically grabbing the driver. The uphill shot into the green with the front bunker guarding a small fairly severe sloping green. The ability to properly judge and execute the shot. I just don't see TP at this level.


IMHO, the seaside course in La Jolla with the gentle breezes lacks the substance of US Open courses.


(As an aside, I do agree La Jolla is a wonderful place to visit. Funny story, my wife and I hiked down the cliffs at the Glider Port only to unknowingly end  up at Black's Beach. This is about thirty years ago so it may not be the place today that it was then.)


Bill

[jeffwarne]

Great posts Tim and Bill.


I have to disagree about the lack of short game skill being displayed at TP. Matt Wolff put on a clinic, as have many-displaying a variety of varied trajectories, spins and varied techniques.Watching only a hybrid or putter off super fast/tight turf can be optionless/boring too-see Pinehurst with Kaymer.
Huge skill must be displayed from wildly inconsistent rough-not all "options" involve super tight turf-God knows that idea jumped the shark 10 years ago and is WAAAY overdone at many places. Variety in course selection and setup includes occasionally having some greenside rough.Not every course, but occasionally in certain years is OK.





I'd be curious to know if Merion bought more land with their 20m$$ renovation.
because it absolutely was too small for the modern championship  game-regardless of contrived score.
One of the best courses in the world (so is Myopia), but the professional scale left them years ago-1981 specifically.


But they knew that, hence the 20M$ spend.


It didn't have to be this way.

[Ira Fishman]

I generally pay more attention to the golf than the course (yes, I know that they are related) when watching the US Open, and I do not watch the Farmers. The threads here prompted me to pay more attention to the architecture even with the limits of TV. I was surprised by the elevation changes, the greens sitting up, and the quality of the greens. The greens may not be potato chip but they are not boring tiered; more a bit of a mix of both. I also think that the trees add strategy and are attractive.  My sense is that at normal fairway widths it would be a very good place to play. However, the bunkering does look horrendous—it just does not fit the location and terrain.


I think it could be a really cool course with no rough (bringing the canyons and green sittings more into play) and far less fairway bunkers.


As far as being a US Open venue, the posts about the players who have won there is a strong point.


Bottom line for me is that the reality seems to lie in between those who dislike and like it with equal intensity.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

I think it could be a really cool course with no rough (bringing the canyons and green sittings more into play) and far less fairway bunkers.

Ira-Agreed and I was trying to think of another major venue where so many approaches are played from fairway bunkers.

[Craig Sweet]

A question...


Twenty golfers at even par or better.


Is it because Torrey Pines is a difficult course and only the very best of the best are rising to the top....


Or, is it because it is a mediocre course that levels the playing field allowing more players an opportunity to win?

[David_Tepper]

Craig -

Looks to me like TP is a mediocre (from a design point of view) but difficult (to play) golf course that identifies very good golfers.

DT


 

[Kalen Braley]

I've never equated scoring with quality, especially given how much variance there can be in setup, (calling par 5s par 4s, building special tees for pro events, etc).

However, if were using 20 players at even or better after 3 rounds as the measure, that's often the case at ANGC too, so is that really saying anything?

[Terry Lavin]

From the USGA perspective, I’d venture to say that Torrey Pines is more of a home run. First, it’s a public course so they don’t have to deal with a membership and its committees. Then, they can effectively tell the superintendent to do as the USGA wishes. Many of those wishes have to do with making the golf course as difficult as possible, which then effectively gives them control over any architectural changes.


Then you have the rather fetching views of the coastline and the kite surfers that soften the suffering of the golfers who are dealing with a tough setup. Finally there’s the fact that they’re getting deeper into the evening across the country, which helps ratings.


They probably didn’t factor in drought conditions, but that only makes the course progressively more difficult over the weekend.


Now they just need to avoid a random, one-off winner and the home run becomes a grand slam.  Given the leaderboard, it looks like a known commodity is likely to be hoisting the trophy.