Westward Ho!/RND vrs TOC

[Thomas Dai]

TOC and Westward Ho! essentially play over pretty similar links terrain.

After the 1912 British Amateur was held at Westward Ho! Bernard Darwin wrote - “What a wonderful course this now is! In the opinion of most of those who played there in 1912 the very best in the whole world of golf. Nowhere else perhaps is to be found the same combination of difficult and testing holes with the inimitable splendour of natural golfing country.”
So my question is given that Darwin suggests that before WW1 Westward Ho! - “.. the very best in the whole world of golf.” - was more highly regarded than TOC how would those posting herein now compare them as tests of golf?
Atb

PS - here is Rans profile of Westward Ho! written a few years ago since when holes 7-8-9 have had to be modified due to severe coastal erosion - https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/royal-north-devon/

[Niall C]

David


I'm a fan of Westward Ho but TOC probably wins through having more high points and fewer low points, no ?


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

I am a fan of Westward Ho! but I have never thought of it as a testing course, though I can't say I have scored very well there.  I have never really paid much attention to where the back tees are.


Certainly it is very exposed to storms coming in from the Atlantic and it is very testing when you get one of those, and of course you must avoid the Rushes. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I guess in some ways both courses are on relatively flat sites, but I never thought of them as similar in anyway. The bunkers at RND aren't nearly as frightening as they are at TOC. RND's greens are smaller and do not have as much slope or undulations, although I love RND's greens. The first and last holes at RND are on some heavy earth, the first is a wonderful par five with all kinds of playing options. Four and six are always possible. The first at TOC just gets the player underway.


The sea rushes are distinctive and RND has some really excellent shortish par fours and some really good par threes. Nine was one of my all time favorite par fives. I haven't played since it has been converted to a par four.


TOC is a more difficult test of golf but since RND put in some back tees it has become a more difficult test for some of the amateur events that it stages. If I had to score closest to par, I'd rather play RND.

[mike_malone]

When I played RND I thought it was the TOC of England. Both have great width but RND has more rough so off line shots are a little more challenging. TOC is more manicured so it’s more visually appealing.


RND has the wood planked famous bunker; TOC has Hell. Both have par threes that are perched up with water behind.


RND has ponies; TOC has people walking across 1/18.


They really aren’t comparable so I’ll just keep loving both.

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting thoughts.
From the course point of view an aspect that has always led me to consider the two courses together is the overall appearance of flat terrain but with micro bumps and hollows all over most of the terrain. The out-n-back with a loopy bit is also something they have in common as is the prevailing wind being behind and from the left on the way out and against and from the right on the way back. And the WHo! rushes are kind of the same height as the TOC gorse. And then there's the similarity of width and optional lines of play often, but not necessarily, along the ground if so desired.

As to 'test of golf' I looked at the two courses Course/Slope ratings -
Westward Ho!
Black(M) 74.5/135
White(M) 72.5/134
Yellow(M) 71.5/130
Red(W) 73.5/133
TOC
Black(M) 73.1/132
Blue(M) 71.4/129
Green(M) 69.9/125
Red(W) 75.5/138
Would I be correct in assuming that these Course/Slope ratings imply that Westward Ho! is a stronger test of golf than TOC for men?
After Herbert Fowler upgraded WHo! prior to WW1 there was some lobbying for it to hold The Open. I'm sure there were a variety of reasons why it didn't happen. A great shame in many ways as even today with its recent revisions by M&E it's still over 7,000 yds with lots of space to be even longer.
atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

I was an overseas member at RND for about six years and played it for a week every year. I just love the course and club. It was a great place to be. I have only played TOC a few times. 2 and 18 were hard for me at RND and the par threes are all strong. Par is a good score on any one of them. While I haven't played the new par five, the other three par fives are all birdiable. RND is certainly a strong test and When they play the West of England tournament no one tears up the course. What I like about RND is that it feels like a real club and not tourist trap. If I still went to England every year I would remain a member.

[Richard Fisher]

RND is absolutely one of favourite golf places, and golf clubs, in the world. Its closest UK parallel in terms of club and course ambience is probably RStD Harlech, an historic club that was similarly once much more 'officer-class' than it is now. Both also had numerous associations with (public) school masters, as reflected in RND's Schoolmasters Cup.


In terms of course comparisons, I would suggest that perhaps the strongest parallel to TOC within Devon is actually Dawlish Warren (an eccentric nomination, I know, but topographically justified!) rather than the Ho! itself. It's now more than a decade since my last trip to RND, something I hope very much to rectify once COVID permits. Ran's (brilliant) piece on RND, read in tandem with Patric Dickinson (likewise), should encourage as many GCA followers as possible to make the pilgrimage to Westward Ho!, and they won't be disappointed, either by the golf course or the clubhouse.


As a PS, there is, as is appropriate, a good deal of RND coverage in the fab new Fowler biography discussed elsewhere on GCA

[Garland Bayley]

...
Would I be correct in assuming that these Course/Slope ratings imply that Westward Ho! is a stronger test of golf than TOC for men?
...

No RND just has bigger disasters lurking.