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Bill Shamleffer

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vintage TPC sawgrass
« on: March 12, 2021, 03:36:43 PM »
After you watch The Players this weekend, checkout this 90 min video of CBS coverage of final round 1984 Players Championship.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auZL_VoMmdo




The course is a bit "rougher"; the greens are most likely a bit slower, and possibly due to that, the play is bit quicker.


But comparing today's course to the course 37 years ago is the most interesting part.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2021, 09:21:45 PM »
I feel like it's a totally different course. So cool. Was the now greenside bunker left of the 1st originally a grassy/sandy unkept area?The 11th green complex looked super cool and nasty.All the changes since have sanitized the course, especially the most recent in 2016. I still can't get behind the new 12th. It doesn't feel like a Dye hole to me.I hope one day down the road there will be a push to bring the course back to this. I feel like with modern technology the original TPC would be perfect to combat the modern player.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2021, 03:02:34 AM »
Not sure of the year it was taken but this is a cracking old photo.
Also here’s a link to an article describing how goats were used to initially clear scrub etc from the site - https://www.pgatour.com/long-form/2016/05/10/goats-tpc-sawgrass-the-players-championship.html
atb
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 04:25:55 AM by Thomas Dai »

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2021, 05:06:38 AM »
Wow Thomas that is a very early photo I'm sure Tom can shed some light on that timeframe.
BTW anyone have a rough estimation of the historical green fee during high season at TPC Sawgrass?
I'm guessing it has ballooned in the last year or so.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2021, 05:23:28 AM »
The original TPC was so raw, unlike anything of its time & would still be that way today of it wasn't for the push to manicure. While the agronomy side we see this week with the perfect overseed & conditions, there is something about the old, original TPC.


Ryan Ballengee on Twitter: "Restore Sawgrass. The place looks like it was incredible in the original raw form. https://t.co/0EgQoF3rcq" / Twitter
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2021, 06:50:09 AM »
   Maybe it should be “restored” to exactly the way it was when Dye designed it. Or just maybe it’s better now.

Bruce Hospes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2021, 08:16:23 AM »
I worked there in 1984, and I can assure you that it's much different.  The greens were Tifdwarf, the bunkers had native sand in them, the roughs had a lot of Bahia grass, and it was maintained with the mindset that it was supposed to be a little rough around the edges.  The greens were rebuilt in 1988, and that might have been the genesis of a look towards a more manicured look.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2021, 09:19:37 AM »
I worked there in 1984, and I can assure you that it's much different.  The greens were Tifdwarf, the bunkers had native sand in them, the roughs had a lot of Bahia grass, and it was maintained with the mindset that it was supposed to be a little rough around the edges.  The greens were rebuilt in 1988, and that might have been the genesis of a look towards a more manicured look.


Its interesting to note that Pete built Long Cove right after TPC. VASTLY different golf courses, yet both were much more rough & raw in their original renditions. LCC had Bahai roughs & much more native grasses. It was cleaned up in the late 1980s.



Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2021, 09:51:47 AM »
Bill,


I wonder if someday people see what this classic Pete Dye design has evolved into and decide to restore this  golf course back to the original version.  One of my favorite holes # 12 looks nothing like the original hole, that was a lot of fun to play.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2021, 10:19:40 AM »
I worked there in 1984, and I can assure you that it's much different.  The greens were Tifdwarf, the bunkers had native sand in them, the roughs had a lot of Bahia grass, and it was maintained with the mindset that it was supposed to be a little rough around the edges.  The greens were rebuilt in 1988, and that might have been the genesis of a look towards a more manicured look.


It is hard for anyone to remember but when the TPC was built in 1979-80 the USA was in the midst of a terrible recession and interest rates were through the moon.  Both Mr. Dye and Commissioner Beman were concerned about the cost of maintaining the course and all of the "waste areas" were Pete's attempt to limit the amount of fine turf that had to be maintained.  [Commissioner Beman compared them to Pine Valley.]  I still have an old article from the USGA Golf Journal about the "low maintenance" TPC design.


Pete thought that they could just run a tractor with a drag mat through the waste areas once or twice a week to keep the weeds out, but that did not work in Jacksonville, because bermudagrass is much more aggressive than the typical weed.  So the waste areas quickly became grassed over.  When Bobby Weed became superintendent there, he started contouring those areas and treating big swathes of them more like bunkers.


Of course, after the success of the first couple of tournaments, the TPC became recognized as the home of the PGA TOUR, and from that point they wanted it perfectly maintained . . . it just wouldn't do for their home base to look scruffy around the edges.  So the whole premise of the course was turned on its head, and it went from a low-maintenance design to a VERY HIGH MAINTENANCE design.  All of the steep banks that weren't going to be maintained, are a bitch to maintain to a high standard.  This taught me a valuable lesson about making long-term assumptions about how your course will be maintained.


Many years ago I sent someone here some of my original slides of the course from 1981 so they could post how the course looked then.  I will look to see if I can find the thread, but it may well be gone, due to the demise of some photo-hosting sites.  [EDIT:  the only reference to this I could find was from a 2013 thread where I was traveling and the thread ended before any photos were posted.  I do still have the slides, if someone wants to put them up somewhere.]
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 10:26:30 AM by Tom_Doak »

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2021, 11:04:37 AM »
Tom, you should send them to Ran so he can use them in a TPC Sawgrass course profile. Just an idea.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2021, 11:58:35 AM »
Photos taken during construction would be interesting too view as well.
Atb

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2021, 05:19:10 PM »

Many years ago I sent someone here some of my original slides of the course from 1981 so they could post how the course looked then.  I will look to see if I can find the thread, but it may well be gone, due to the demise of some photo-hosting sites.  [EDIT:  the only reference to this I could find was from a 2013 thread where I was traveling and the thread ended before any photos were posted.  I do still have the slides, if someone wants to put them up somewhere.]
This thread?
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52074.msg1290348.html#msg1290348
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 05:25:02 PM by Mark Bourgeois »
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2021, 06:49:26 PM »
Tom,


If you'd like to email some photos I can get them up.  My Email address is in my profile if you click on my name to the left..

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2021, 09:45:56 PM »
Tom,


If you'd like to email some photos I can get them up.  My Email address is in my profile if you click on my name to the left..


The infamous and mythical Doak Sawgrass Slides have entered into the realm of the Ark of the Covenant, Shivalinga, and the Holy Grail.


But I fear that not even Indiana Jones himself could unearth them.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2021, 09:48:12 PM »
Tom,


If you'd like to email some photos I can get them up.  My Email address is in my profile if you click on my name to the left..


Send me an email on Monday, so I will remember to look them up when I'm at the office!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2021, 12:25:57 PM »
Tom,

If you'd like to email some photos I can get them up.  My Email address is in my profile if you click on my name to the left..

Send me an email on Monday, so I will remember to look them up when I'm at the office!


Will do!

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2021, 09:58:51 PM »
Bringing this back up to make sure we get the vintage photos
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2021, 04:27:21 AM »
Some photos recently posted on social media by Simon Haines. Hope SH doesn't mind me reposting them here.
The 'stadium' look is very noticeable in photos 3 and 4.

atb




Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2021, 11:59:50 AM »
This is pulled from Jeff Mingay's twitter. It's the 16th green looking back


Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2021, 07:43:37 PM »
Tom,

If you'd like to email some photos I can get them up.  My Email address is in my profile if you click on my name to the left..

Send me an email on Monday, so I will remember to look them up when I'm at the office!


Will do!


How is this project coming along?


IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!


--Indiana Jones
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2021, 08:21:19 PM »
Tom,

If you'd like to email some photos I can get them up.  My Email address is in my profile if you click on my name to the left..

Send me an email on Monday, so I will remember to look them up when I'm at the office!


Will do!

How is this project coming along?

IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!

--Indiana Jones


I sent an email to Tom, haven't heard back yet!  Fingers crossed still!  ;)

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2021, 07:14:41 PM »
Original 16 looked a lot like 11!


This is pulled from Jeff Mingay's twitter. It's the 16th green looking back




Sandy Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: vintage TPC sawgrass
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2021, 11:57:34 PM »
I have a very cool yardage book from when I played there in 1982 with a lot of great pictures in it. The course does look different but not as much as you might think. I guarantee the maintenance budget was a fraction of what it is now, it had a more natural look for sure.

Firm greens, firmer fairways.