Golf World Top 100 Worldwide Public Access List

[Paul Rudovsky]

Makes sense now. I was scratching my head over CW being above Pac Dunes. 

I really don't care if Pacific Dunes is 10th or 11th.  Voters might call it one way or the other.  But when the only voter from Australia is the designer of the one course, which way is it gonna fall?

If it's the same Scott Champion I know, he'd make it two Australians on the panel. He's a partner of Bob Harrison (Ardfin)  down here.

Correct Mike. Chris Bertram asked if I would contribute in a small way and I happily obliged. Though it's worth noting (and mentioned in his article) that architects weren't able to comment on courses they were involved with (e.g. Ardfin). I'm guessing the same would apply to Tom's suggestion that Cape Wickham's ranking was courtesy of Darius. Do I agree with all of the list - of course not. But I guess that's the beauty (and downfall) of ranking lists...hasn't been one I've agreed with yet.

Funny story on this...I tried doing my own personal top 100 a few years ago...spent countless hours on it and finally finished it one night around midnight and was going to send it to a bunch of friends...but decided to sleep on it, take one more look the next morning and then distribute it.

around 6:30am the next morning I got up and meant to my laptop to look again at my "achievement".  In about 15 seconds I noticed two courses and their relative positions and screamed to myself "who there fxxx put course 'A' seven positions above course 'B' "...and proceeded to laugh partially at myself and partially at the process.  Learned a big lesson that morning, and have never agin tried to create a top to bottom 100 list (its easier to play them instead )

[Paul Rudovsky]

Paul R -
It just dawned on me (duh!) what you mean by World Top 100 Ever. What a neat accomplishment! So a question (with apologies for the thread jack):

What would you say is the most common characteristic of those courses that once featured in the Top 100 list but no longer make it?

Peter--


Thanks for the thought.


Regarding your in the second paragraph I would make the following comments:


1.  my most direct answer is that the older lists had a much greater emphasis on "toughness", championship tracks, and courses that are great tests for touring pros and others with handicaps from plus 6 to plus 10.  Today I think most highly regarded lists focus much more on courses where after playing 18...all you wasn't to do is go back out and play it again.  Put more simply, focussing on "FUN"!!   One exception...Golf Digest, to their detriment.


2.  in other cases, I think courses change over time.,...they may get tired, or they get overtreed (I gather trees grow 3% a year...which means if a course has 10,000 trees it should be cutting down 300 every year).  Courses that have "fallen off" in many cases have not been restored or renovated and over time changed not for the better (trust me, with my body being 76 years old, I fully understand that process).


But I would also point to something a little different.  I firmly believe that today's courses represent the greatest collection of golf courses ever available at one time in the history of the game.  Contributing to that are the wonderful old classics, an incredible collection of new offerings that have opened (especially some of those that have opened since 1994 starting w Sandhills), and the phenomenal restorations/renovations performed over the past 25 years or so (and for that all golfers should be thankful for today's architects...or at least the best of them  ...for their contributions).  The changes have been mind blowing.  I was at Quaker Ridge from 1975-2000 and loved it...but by around 2007 it had become almost claustrophobic.  What Gil Hanse did there is simply amazing...Quaker is so much better than it ever was (IMHO) and yet it is lower on most lists...and frankly as much as I love it today...I would not move it up to the top 20 USA listing it once had.  Other examples...abound but include Cal Club, LACC, Morraine, Brookline, Oakmont, Oak Hill-E, Essex Cty (MA), Myopia, Somerset Hills, Fox Chapel, Piping Rock, Old Town, Maidstone, Shinnecock, Hirono, NGLA, Turnberry...and many more that slip my mind right now.


In essence...it is more a case of these courses rushing ahead than the others falling behind...but the net effect is the same IMO.

[Tom_Doak]

Darius' list is his own and I believe he hasn't even seen some of the courses on it . . . that makes it an odd one to use as a basis for your world travels.  If you're gonna go that route, I will make up my own world top 100 and send you to Nepal and Sri Lanka.



Tom--  yes I am well aware of the pitfall's in Darius' list...but regarding your "threat" above, since I have the MacWood "Spoof" list (or I guess the MacWood/Morrissett "Spoof" list) included in my World EVER (as well as the Top 100 from Morrissett's 147 Custodians), I have already been to Sri Lanka (so named since Ceylon NLE's).  Yes I played all of the MacWood/Morrissett Spoof (excluding the 5 NLE's on it) including Nuwara Eliya in the Highlands of Sri Lanka which was #81 (just ahead of Ballybunion and Porthcawl and 7 spots ahead of Kingston Heath)!  Semi-hair-raising stop over between Vietnam and Dubai in January 2016.       But did get some interesting stories from it.


But you are right, Nepal would do it to me.   

I didn't think Nuwara Eliya should be anywhere near the top 100, but Donald Steel's Victoria course should really be considered.  So maybe you'll have to go back!


Lists or no lists, Himalayan GC is a must play experience.

[David_Elvins]

Makes sense now. I was scratching my head over CW being above Pac Dunes. 

You wouldn't have  cape Wickham over pac dunes?  I love both but I thought Wickham was clearly better, and was surprised it was ranked as low as ten.

[Mike_Clayton]

One criteria for 'Courses You Can Play' should be none with green fees exceeding those of The Old Course can be included.

[Daryl David]

Makes sense now. I was scratching my head over CW being above Pac Dunes. 

You wouldn't have  cape Wickham over pac dunes?  I love both but I thought Wickham was clearly better, and was surprised it was ranked as low as ten.

Just my opinion. I liked CW, just don’t see it ranked that high. At that level of quality, it’s just spitting hairs. They are both awesome. I just have not seen many world lists with CW higher than PD, so it stood out.

[Rob Marshall]

A ranking is IMO silly. Give me a list of courses that are accessible that is created by someone like Ran. No numbering, no order, just if you have chance they are worth a look. I don’t care where Pine Valley ranks or NGL because I have no chance to ever see them. Give me a list of courses with great examples of golf architecture I can actually play.

[David_Elvins]

Makes sense now. I was scratching my head over CW being above Pac Dunes. 

You wouldn't have  cape Wickham over pac dunes?  I love both but I thought Wickham was clearly better, and was surprised it was ranked as low as ten.

Just my opinion. I liked CW, just don’t see it ranked that high. At that level of quality, it’s just spitting hairs. They are both awesome. I just have not seen many world lists with CW higher than PD, so it stood out.

That's fair enough, they are both great,  I can't see Cape Wickham's position being because of any shenanigans though, and there is as much conversation that pac dunes is too high as there is for cape Wickham, imo. Eg. Is pac dunes really better than barnbougle?

[Ronald Montesano]

It took until Clayton (green fee ceiling) and Marshall (courses I have a chance at playing) for a comment to validate my thoughts on seeing post #1 in this thread.


What a bullsh!t list. There's no point to it. Green fees aren't just the amount paid to the club. They are the sum total of the fees brought by travel, lodging, food, and sundry.


I played an extraordinary private club once. Remarkable track, built by a former poster on this site. Never did I feel more in-the-way and unwelcome. The only employee that made me feel a bit at ease was my caddie. I told folks I would never have to play ANGC (as if...) because I had essentially played it that day.

[Rob Marshall]

It took until Clayton (green fee ceiling) and Marshall (courses I have a chance at playing) for a comment to validate my thoughts on seeing post #1 in this thread.


What a bullsh!t list. There's no point to it. Green fees aren't just the amount paid to the club. They are the sum total of the fees brought by travel, lodging, food, and sundry.


I played an extraordinary private club once. Remarkable track, built by a former poster on this site. Never did I feel more in-the-way and unwelcome. The only employee that made me feel a bit at ease was my caddie. I told folks I would never have to play ANGC (as if...) because I had essentially played it that day.

Retired pro at my club played Augusta with someone you know from Buffalo. Won a few times on the Senior tour. Not doing well these days health wise.  Anyway, they get to the Hogan bridge and my pro hands his phone to his caddie. He tells the caddie he's going to piss off the bridge and wants him to take a picture of it. The caddie says if you do I'll get fired....My old pro tells him no worries, I'm kidding. I don't think he was, he's a real character.


My cousin played Augusta last year. He said he was treated like a king.