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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Have both Brora and Westward Ho! increased their team and maintenance budget? Or have they just got better at doing a lot on a little?
Mulranny definitely still applies.


Mulranny is the first course that comes to my mind when this kind of topic is raised. And not just for the BAM element either ... lots more to admire about Mulranny too including a terrific selection of wonderful, highly contoured green sites.
Thanks Tom D for initially highlighting it and Ally for encouraging 2016 Buda-ites to visit and play the course.
See - [size=78%]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63585.msg1529366.html#msg1529366[/size]
Atb






Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff,
While I agree that in some cases the green surface you describe might be interesting, it’s really hard to build a functioning green like that with local materials.  I’m convinced that some of the most interesting greens Perry Maxwell built were as much about functioning surface drainage as strategy as he was working in mud on many of his courses.  He had to find a way for those greens to be viable pre-USGA recommendations.
As soon as you design a green that must function primarily on infiltration and internal drainage, you’ve added tremendous cost to any project. And while I know that is now the standard, greens can be built with local materials in many cases if the builders and maintainers take on an attitude of “how do we make this work”.   
Heavy play, very heavy soils, maybe it can’t be done, but in a lot of cases it can work but you have to find clients and turf managers willing to look at it differently.

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Another thing is using your staff creatively. There's really no reason that a cart guy or and f and b guy can't help with golf course setup for an hour or two first thing in the morning. Similarly, there is no reason for a maintenance guy to not help with carts/shop/f and b in the afternoons when the course is packed. There are so many wasted labor hours when you look at customer-facing roles when it's slow (people sitting around waiting for golfers to show up) or maintenance workers looking for things to do when the course is slammed.


If you use an all hands on deck AM maintenance model you can steamroll course setup, and get by with way less regular maintenance employees. In the theoretical BAM model, there are no silos. Everyone does everything.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff,
While I agree that in some cases the green surface you describe might be interesting, it’s really hard to build a functioning green like that with local materials.  I’m convinced that some of the most interesting greens Perry Maxwell built were as much about functioning surface drainage as strategy as he was working in mud on many of his courses.  He had to find a way for those greens to be viable pre-USGA recommendations.
As soon as you design a green that must function primarily on infiltration and internal drainage, you’ve added tremendous cost to any project. And while I know that is now the standard, greens can be built with local materials in many cases if the builders and maintainers take on an attitude of “how do we make this work”.   
Heavy play, very heavy soils, maybe it can’t be done, but in a lot of cases it can work but you have to find clients and turf managers willing to look at it differently.


Don,


I agree in principle. Tillie was another guy where someone wrote, "You can tell a Tillie green......it drains!"  While the average slope has gone down 0.5-1% per decade as greens get faster, I believe 2-3.5% greens surface drain adequately.  I have resisted the temptation some designers have to go to 1.5% with even some dead level areas that rely more on internal drainage.  I have gone down to perhaps 1.75% of a few green fronts. 


Recently, in playing some of my old designs, I noted a few that had drainage problems at the edges where swales exit.  It wasn't so much the green slope, as it was somehow the perimeter had built up a quarter inch or so over the years, either with a new sod ring installed just a little high or some other reason.  If I ever get to build another set of greens, I will look more carefully just outside the green surface, in the collar/apron, to make sure that drains at least 3% right off the green edge to help counteract problems 20 years down the line.  Live and learn, I guess, even at my age.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1


Recently, in playing some of my old designs, I noted a few that had drainage problems at the edges where swales exit.  It wasn't so much the green slope, as it was somehow the perimeter had built up a quarter inch or so over the years, either with a new sod ring installed just a little high or some other reason.  If I ever get to build another set of greens, I will look more carefully just outside the green surface, in the collar/apron, to make sure that drains at least 3% right off the green edge to help counteract problems 20 years down the line.  Live and learn, I guess, even at my age.


Jeff:


That ring is buildup from topdressing sand being dragged around the green and flung out to the edges, multiple times per year.  We find it on a lot of the classic courses that went to aggressive topdressing programs beginning in the 1980's.  But, yes, it is more likely to cause drainage problems (instead of irregular bounces on chip shots) where the drainage goes off the green slower.

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Courses grazed by sheep, kangaroos probably as well, don't half keep costs down but also produce lovely turf to play from and goats are great for eating scrub and vegetation. This approach with fences around the putting surfaces is spot-on for BAM ... except where big hungry critters exist that want kill and eat the four-legged nibbling members of the maintenance crew.
Equipment roll-back ought to aid BAM as well, but maybe best not to go there within this thread. :)
Small clubhouses as well.
atb


I always thought it’d be cool to have sheep and goats on a BAM course too. 

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Another thing is using your staff creatively. There's really no reason that a cart guy or and f and b guy can't help with golf course setup for an hour or two first thing in the morning. Similarly, there is no reason for a maintenance guy to not help with carts/shop/f and b in the afternoons when the course is packed. There are so many wasted labor hours when you look at customer-facing roles when it's slow (people sitting around waiting for golfers to show up) or maintenance workers looking for things to do when the course is slammed.



If you use an all hands on deck AM maintenance model you can steamroll course setup, and get by with way less regular maintenance employees. In the theoretical BAM model, there are no silos. Everyone does everything.


Exactly.  We do the same in my dental office. Assistants help up front, front desk helps the clinical area. Hygienists pull teeth (just kidding, but they can numb my patients).

Perhaps this is why I figure there are ways to make a great BAM course with no frills clubhouse and an awesome and passionate team helping out.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff,
While I agree that in some cases the green surface you describe might be interesting, it’s really hard to build a functioning green like that with local materials.  I’m convinced that some of the most interesting greens Perry Maxwell built were as much about functioning surface drainage as strategy as he was working in mud on many of his courses.  He had to find a way for those greens to be viable pre-USGA recommendations.
As soon as you design a green that must function primarily on infiltration and internal drainage, you’ve added tremendous cost to any project. And while I know that is now the standard, greens can be built with local materials in many cases if the builders and maintainers take on an attitude of “how do we make this work”.   
Heavy play, very heavy soils, maybe it can’t be done, but in a lot of cases it can work but you have to find clients and turf managers willing to look at it differently.


I think that you're right re: Perry Maxwell.  He supposedly designed many if not most of the greens on the MacKenzie planned Ohio State University Scarlet Course (1938).  From first-person accounts, the push-up greens were built on the clay material dug out from the creek that bisects the property to create the irrigation lake.  All but #17 which Weiskopf modified circa 1970 were originals up until the Nicklaus renovation around 2005.


The greens generally had considerable back to front slope.  In my seven years there, I've seen them in very poor condition to acceptable for tournament play (including the NCAA Div. 1 finals).  They typically surfaced drained fast, and could be extremely firm.  Once, after a torrential half-hour summer rain followed by direct sun and high heat and humidity, the low points burned out and it took months to regenerate the grass (some areas were re-sodded, as I recall).


As to the thread's thesis, we've hashed this out here numerous times.  Speaking primarily from a U.S. perspective- there seem to be a fair number of these "BAM" facilities in the UK- the conundrum is finding affordable land near golf population centers that can support the capitalization and operations of such a facility.  Texas is known to be a relatively low-cost state and the new PGA courses being built north of Dallas are on land priced at $160k per acre.


Irrigation is a necessity in many parts of the country and that too is very expensive ($500k-$1.5+ Million) plus the cost of water if it has to be purchased.  And those dreaded carts which golfers seem to require don't glide on dirt, so add another $500k-$1.5+ Million for paths.  I guess you can gouge some pits and find local sand, but that too typically relegates the course to the dollars per round/trunk slammer segment with the attendant effects on revenues and the bottom line.


Labor is the highest operating component- not sure that sheep and cattle would do well here, then add chemicals, insurance, regulatory costs, replacement reserves, taxes, etc. and "BAM" becomes a highly relative term.     


     

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
I was a cart guy but they taught me how to change cups. I would do the two practice greens every Sunday.

I also did stuff like replenish the on course water coolers.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
I was a cart guy but they taught me how to change cups. I would do the two practice greens every Sunday.

I also did stuff like replenish the on course water coolers.
Don't mean to put you out of business, but a course doesn't need a cart guy if there are no carts (only a couple for medical reasons, but no paths).
And artificial turf tees are not cheaper than grass tees in the long run, unless your talking about the old pitch-n-putt ones imbedded in some dirt.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Drew Maliniak

  • Karma: +0/-0
As a real BAM example, I would argue for Orgill Park, a Press Maxwell course in Memphis, TN. No bunkers. Little watering. No frills. $16 dollars USD for a very easy walk.



[/size]Sheep Ranch at Bandon has a lot of BAM features. No bunkers. Mowing heights of fairway, green and rough -- plus double greens. My 15 handicap friends ranked Sheep Ranch No. 1. It's what they wanted: beautiful, approachable, scoreable (unless the wind was up).
 




[size=78%] [/size][/font]





Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Some will take this a self promotion...sorry...this is to show what can be done with a $225,000 maintenance budget..it is a true BAM....am amazed how many millennial types have taken to this type of golf..http://www.editionduo.com/publication/?m=2525&i=671734&p=44&fbclid=IwAR1s9ZY5vbOWCdlClotbhxKFti4tXH22a83UmzPu7yyk27JSjbBFcNLj2Lk
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Fields is a lot of golf for a little price.  A great time was had there in 2014 (the Dixie Cup, right?).  What is the status of the Young course south of Athens?  Another wonderful course.

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Some will take this a self promotion...sorry...this is to show what can be done with a $225,000 maintenance budget..it is a true BAM....am amazed how many millennial types have taken to this type of golf..http://www.editionduo.com/publication/?m=2525&i=671734&p=44&fbclid=IwAR1s9ZY5vbOWCdlClotbhxKFti4tXH22a83UmzPu7yyk27JSjbBFcNLj2Lk


Place looks awesome Mike. Similar story to Sweetens in a sense. I like the focus around the greens and letting the fairways be a little raw. What do the fairways look like during a drought? Do they go fully dormant? Do you paint the greens in the winter and just leave the fairways dormant?


$225,000 is an impressive number if you can have decent conditions. Is this consistent over time?



Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Some will take this a self promotion...sorry...this is to show what can be done with a $225,000 maintenance budget..it is a true BAM....am amazed how many millennial types have taken to this type of golf..http://www.editionduo.com/publication/?m=2525&i=671734&p=44&fbclid=IwAR1s9ZY5vbOWCdlClotbhxKFti4tXH22a83UmzPu7yyk27JSjbBFcNLj2Lk


Place looks awesome Mike. Similar story to Sweetens in a sense. I like the focus around the greens and letting the fairways be a little raw. What do the fairways look like during a drought? Do they go fully dormant? Do you paint the greens in the winter and just leave the fairways dormant?


$225,000 is an impressive number if you can have decent conditions. Is this consistent over time?
Fairways are just firmer during a drought but they are fine...we havent painted the greens the last few years...conditions are good...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"