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Tommy Williamsen

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Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« on: November 04, 2020, 10:27:29 AM »
I love a good par five. But what I consider a good one may be a yawner for others. 17 at Baltusrol and 7 at Pine Valley have similar themes. Hit a long tee shot in the fairway so you can get it across the bunkers in two. Number one at Baltusrol (plays as par four for pros) is one I can reach in two but for longer hitters it doesn't have much strategy.
Designing a par five for players of varying ability and length has to be the most difficult hole to design.

Par fives are also tough to route, especially on a hilly site, since it requires a lot of land.


The fourth hole at Four Streams GC outside DC  is a good example of a medium length par five (530 from the back and 506 from member tees) that challenges most all golfers. From the tee there is a series of deep bunkers down the right side. If you hit a good drive you have a decision to make because there are cross bunkers that jut out into the fairway. There is, however, fairway all the way to the green along the left side. The decision is, "Do I try to carry the bunkers, hit it down the left side into a smallish fairway, or layup to about 125 yards. The green has some good slope right to left. There is a bunker fronting the left side of the green. If you decide to go for the green from a long distance the ball can be run onto the green by hitting it to the right side, where the slope of the land will funnel the ball onto the green. There are decisions to be made on all three shots.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 11:03:21 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Steve Lang

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult hole to design?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2020, 11:04:02 AM »
 8)  You talking about 3 shoters or 2 shooters?
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult hole to design?
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2020, 12:15:08 PM »
8)  You talking about 3 shoters or 2 shooters?


Both, because the "2 shooters" are "3 shots" for most folks. It is difficult to design for both.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Thurman

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2020, 12:31:37 PM »
Maybe in theory, maybe among the cognoscenti.


But I led an effort to put together an "eclectic 18" of the best public golf holes in Kentucky a few years ago, with a small panel of avid but varied golfers. Lots of different playing abilities, and lots of different levels of architectural "awareness." And par 5s were way overrepresented as we built that list, both in terms of nominations received and final votes. The panel loved them, relative to other hole types.


I came away thinking that par 5s are probably the most popular type of hole among the widest swath of golfers. Sure, there are people like my mother who drive it 140 yards at best and hate them because they're long slogs. But they're a pretty small cross-section of players. Even the guy who only drives it 200 yards has a much better chance of hitting a "scoring club" to approach a 500 yard par 5 than a 350 yard par 4. And the fact that even mediocre ones tend to produce a wide range of scores and a wide range of playing strategies by default means they have a built-in level of interest and potential for drama that shorter holes generally don't produce with nearly the same frequency.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2020, 01:00:55 PM »
Generally, par fives are among my favorite holes as well. I have the best chance of making a birdie.

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kalen Braley

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2020, 01:21:28 PM »
I always liked em' as high capper because I could mishit one of the first two shots and still have a chance for a GIR.  And unlike many other HCs I usually play em conservative, as even a 550 yard par 5 can easily be reached with two 3 woods, and a 7-8 iron approach.

I'm guessing if a "top 100 holes in the world" list was compiled, it would still be dominated by par 4s, if for no other reason due to so many more of them to pick from.


Thomas Dai

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult hole to design?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2020, 01:31:07 PM »
8)  You talking about 3 shoters or 2 shooters?
Both, because the "2 shooters" are "3 shots" for most folks. It is difficult to design for both.


A par-5 is supposed to be a hole where it takes an expert player 3 full shots to reach the green.
Atb

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult hole to design?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2020, 02:18:37 PM »
8)  You talking about 3 shoters or 2 shooters?
Both, because the "2 shooters" are "3 shots" for most folks. It is difficult to design for both.


A par-5 is supposed to be a hole where it takes an expert player 3 full shots to reach the green.
Atb


It is? Where does it say that?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2020, 03:24:22 PM »
Adam,



Are you arguing against 3 shots, or the term 3 "full" shots?  The former is the definition of par, I think, even if the lengths used on the USGA rating system never increased with distance gains.


As to the main question, there are two problems in designing par 5's IMHO.


First is that the middle shot is inherently less interesting than either a tee shot for positioning or approach shot.  Unless of course, they are so perfectly interwoven that the first shot must set up the second shot, which must set up the approach.  In reality, doing so may make the hole pretty unplayable, and the middle shot ends up pretty bland in the name of fairness.  A par 4 is conceptually the strongest hole, which is why more than half of most courses are set up with more than half of them being par 4 holes.


The second is that play spreads out among different levels of players.  I recall seeing Muirfield Village no. 6, which featured staggered bunkers up the fw, which was cool, and I thought, never asked Jack or Desmond, that it was to provide some challenge and interest for shorter hitters.  It looked great, too as the bunkers marched up the hill.  I have always looked for the possibility of a similar par 5, but the few I actually have done, have had all the "excess" bunkers removed for lack of play over the years.  So, there is more often the question of whether any particular sand or steep bank grass hazard is "worth it" for a small, almost random level of play it might receive between two par 5 landing zones.


Lastly, there is the "distance" problem.  For pros, there aren't any par 5 holes left.  But, at the courses I design, who cares at most?  Even low handicappers, with 290 yard drive/260 yard 3 wood, a 550 par 5 is the limit of reachable par 5 holes.  If we use the old Gary Player mantra of one unreachable, one reachable, and two tweeners, all we need is on at 575+, one at right around 500 (265 yard drive/235 yard second, and also, the minimum under the rules) and two in between, say, 550 yards and 525 yards, and every day players have fun reaching maybe 3 par 5 holes.  Not a huge change from 40 years ago for the low handicappers.  You might favor slightly longer.


On the short end, 405 is the minimum par 5 for women, but for many, with a 140 yard tee shot, and two 120 yard 3 woods, 380 yards is all they can reach.  Similar for senior men at 170-150-150 - they should probably never exceed that 471 minimum for par 5 holes by USGA standards.


I presume the question was aimed at my middle point - can we make the second shot truly interesting strategically.  While yes, it seems it happens pretty rarely.  If I had time, I could speculate as to why.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2020, 03:39:54 PM »
Adam,

Are you arguing against 3 shots, or the term 3 "full" shots?  The former is the definition of par, I think, even if the lengths used on the USGA rating system never increased with distance gains.



I'd just like someone to show me a definition...
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2020, 05:18:50 PM »
Historically par was based on the distance of the hole, something like this as adopted and recommended by the Executive Committee of the USGA -


May 1917 Golf Illustrated -


Up to 250 - par 3
251 to 4445 - par 4
446 up to 600 - par 5
Over 600 - par 6


An earlier June 1910 Golf Magazine article covering a Western Golf Association event had used shorter ranges of up to 215, up to 400, up to 575 and 576 or greater.


Obviously the rules got fudged now an again as time went on.  What we have today is the vestiges of that system, with par most often being set by the builders/architects of a course.  Holes today are designed to be par 3's, par 4's, etc.  There are longer and shorter examples of each out there, blurring any distinctions made with yardages in mind.


The idea that it was ever based on "three full shots" for an expert player seems to me to be nonsense, as there is no way to define "three full shots."  If this were the case, nearly every par 5 in the world would need to be reclassified as a 4.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2020, 06:12:08 PM »
Adam,



Are you arguing against 3 shots, or the term 3 "full" shots?  The former is the definition of par, I think, even if the lengths used on the USGA rating system never increased with distance gains.


As to the main question, there are two problems in designing par 5's IMHO.


First is that the middle shot is inherently less interesting than either a tee shot for positioning or approach shot.  Unless of course, they are so perfectly interwoven that the first shot must set up the second shot, which must set up the approach.  In reality, doing so may make the hole pretty unplayable, and the middle shot ends up pretty bland in the name of fairness.  A par 4 is conceptually the strongest hole, which is why more than half of most courses are set up with more than half of them being par 4 holes.

I presume the question was aimed at my middle point - can we make the second shot truly interesting strategically.  While yes, it seems it happens pretty rarely.  If I had time, I could speculate as to why.


Jeff, designing a par five where the second shot is interesting, has to be the most difficult dilemma you face. I suppose you could line the fairway with bunkers,but doesn't make it interesting, just penal. The hole I describe at Four Streams does it well, but they are few and far between. I played Congaree and when we got to one of the par fives he told me a particular par five was uninteresting. When I got to my tee ball and looked at the second shot, it got my attention with all kinds of trouble. The young pro just hit an iron onto the green.


 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

archie_struthers

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2020, 08:27:03 AM »
 8)


Can tell you from personal experience that I really enjoyed designing and building the par fives at Twisted Dune. It does require a lot of ten because people can hit it so far , but we aren't really designing to stop the 1% of players who hit it sick distances with the new equipment. You can throw a little twist at them by how you lay out the green side hazards, particularly diagonal to the green. Alos a nice false front never hurts if this twists your undies a bit.


I really like the player to have to think about all the shots, particularly the second. Give them a bit of risk if they are blasting away with no fear or respect for the angle or difficulty of the next shot. Give the average / poor player a chance by not forcing them to carry hazards that are too penal.


Have heard a lot of criticism of the 7th at PV over the years first from long hitters who had to lay up on their tee shot and from the other side from those who couldn't carry Hell's Half Acre in two back in my youth. Not much sympathy for the bombers but might have been thinking about the other guys as to forced carries. But of course it's also what your intent about the kind of course you are building that tempers your judgment.


We were blessed with lots of room at Twisted Dune , in lieu of that I really have respect for guys who can shoehorn a par five into a tough site and make it work!






Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2020, 09:24:58 AM »
Archie, at Twisted Dunes did you have a blank canvas so you make the landscape fit your needs? I loved the course. It is very inventive.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

BCrosby

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2020, 09:26:40 AM »
As noted above, the par of a hole is supposed to correlate with a range of distances. That range has changed over the years, as I recall. But the ranges are only recommendations. In designating par, I've not seen reference to 'full shots'.


(For the philosophers in the room: There is no rule that says you can't have a 150 yard par 5. Virtually everyone would say that's crazy. Even those here who say par doesn't matter.  :) )


You do see in the 1890s and into the early 20th century frequent references to "full shot holes", whether the hole required one, two or three shots. Such Victorian theories of golf design were based on the notion that a hole was defective unless it required some multiple of full shots to reach the green, understood to mean, initially, full wood shots but later relaxed to mean (more vaguely) any kind of longer shot. It was a widely accepted idea at the time and a linchpin of Victorian golf architecture. It was not, however, linked to par designations which were rarely used then in any event. (With the emergence of strategic golf architecture, think Low, Colt, et al., the relevance of 'full shot holes' faded away. A long story.)


In any event, the notion that par designations today are based on some combination of 'full shots' is either simply wrong or is confusing some very old ideas with the more modern idea that a every hole gotta have a 'par'.


Bob 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Par fives: Most difficult holes to design?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2020, 01:54:04 PM »
Adam,



Are you arguing against 3 shots, or the term 3 "full" shots?  The former is the definition of par, I think, even if the lengths used on the USGA rating system never increased with distance gains.


As to the main question, there are two problems in designing par 5's IMHO.


First is that the middle shot is inherently less interesting than either a tee shot for positioning or approach shot.  Unless of course, they are so perfectly interwoven that the first shot must set up the second shot, which must set up the approach.  In reality, doing so may make the hole pretty unplayable, and the middle shot ends up pretty bland in the name of fairness.  A par 4 is conceptually the strongest hole, which is why more than half of most courses are set up with more than half of them being par 4 holes.

I presume the question was aimed at my middle point - can we make the second shot truly interesting strategically.  While yes, it seems it happens pretty rarely.  If I had time, I could speculate as to why.


Jeff, designing a par five where the second shot is interesting, has to be the most difficult dilemma you face. I suppose you could line the fairway with bunkers, but doesn't make it interesting, just penal. The hole I describe at Four Streams does it well, but they are few and far between. I played Congaree and when we got to one of the par fives he told me a particular par five was uninteresting. When I got to my tee ball and looked at the second shot, it got my attention with all kinds of trouble. The young pro just hit an iron onto the green.


I just retold this story today to a gca nerd, but at Colbert Hills, the 7th at 600 yards long was the scene of a very intense argument between golf coach and golfer on the team.  Basically, the second shot has RTJ style bunkers on both sides, which always seemed to me to be one good option for such second shots on long par 5 holes.   The golfer hit a nice tee ball, then put a FW wood in one of the second LZ bunkers, causing coach to go nuts, even threatening to demote the kid or kick him off the team. 


He felt there was no reason for a thinking golfer to hit a wood and even challenge the hazards.  Even at 600+ yards, and the second LZ at 300-270, or 570 yards, the third shot is so short, either 30 if you miss the bunkers, or maybe 80 or 90 if you don't.  Or, you try to lay up to your preferred wedge distance, whatever that is.  There is no reason not to just hit that second to the fattest part of the fw, maybe even the rough given how short your third is.  In the meantime, you might have a dozen golfers a day struggling with that 30 yard sand shot, slowing down play, and what not. 


It might work if the tee shot on a par 5 was an artificially short one, via dogleg or cross hazard, i.e., the "great hazard" or a 90 Deg. dogleg at 200 yards, not full driver.  Then, it might almost require a full second shot wanted to get under 150 to the green.    Lateral or angled water on one side of the 2 LZ, combined with a real shallow target coming in from the opposite side might work, but most golfers will play away from the potential two shot penalty, and risk a sand or similar shot if they miss the small target, which has a 50-50% chance of getting in on par as well.  Basically, there are so many stats out there, it's not hard for better players to better calculate the risk.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach