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Rob Marshall

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Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« on: August 11, 2020, 02:42:26 PM »
So I have a question. I'm on my greens committee and we have a meeting on Monday. Our course is in Upstate NY. Have have had a hot damp summer. I personally think that our golf course has been in the best shape I have ever seen it. In the last few weeks we have some browned out spots in the fairways where there is poa. I my mind nothing major but some members are bitching. There really isn't anything that can be cone to combat this is there? Isn't it just the nature of the game when you have some poa that has mixed in your fairways?

If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2020, 02:57:50 PM »

What is your superintendent's perspective on the "problem"?


(quotes for emphasis)
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2020, 02:59:25 PM »
So I have a question. I'm on my greens committee and we have a meeting on Monday. Our course is in Upstate NY. Have have had a hot damp summer. I personally think that our golf course has been in the best shape I have ever seen it. In the last few weeks we have some browned out spots in the fairways where there is poa. I my mind nothing major but some members are bitching. There really isn't anything that can be cone to combat this is there? Isn't it just the nature of the game when you have some poa that has mixed in your fairways?



Poa is the weaker grass when compared to bent. Your wet, hot, damp days have been an long, slow death, I'm sure. More aerification, more drainage, more bent grass.


Pythium & Anthracnose, Im sure are been prevelant. Tough year.


Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2020, 03:11:11 PM »
He's talking about verticutting and over seeding.


Anthony, I don't think we have any issues with Pythium. He has been plugging the fairways pretty aggressively the last few years.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2020, 03:16:53 PM »
He's talking about verticutting and over seeding.


Anthony, I don't think we have any issues with Pythium. He has been plugging the fairways pretty aggressively the last few years.



No worries. Anthracnose, Pythium & PRR tend to show up with damp, water longed soils. Hot & Humid.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2020, 04:33:08 PM »
He's talking about verticutting and over seeding.


Anthony, I don't think we have any issues with Pythium. He has been plugging the fairways pretty aggressively the last few years.



No worries. Anthracnose, Pythium & PRR tend to show up with damp, water longed soils. Hot & Humid.


Do you think verticutting the areas would be helpful?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2020, 05:17:19 PM »
Stop the presses!  Luckily there has been a product come to market in January that may be the proverbial “silver bullet” all superintendents have been searching for, well, forever.  It’s called PoaCure, chemical name methiozolin.  I heard about this product a while back but it has only been recently registered.  It slowly takes poa out of bentgrass(slowly), and could potentially be a great tool to keep it out.  There are roughly 250 golf courses who have used it throughout the USA.  Many as a test plot during the R&D phase. Here is the quote from the two most respected turf weed scientist in the USA...”it’s the greatest herbicide to come to market in my lifetime”.  I am going with the the company’s lead herbicide scientist next week to visit several courses in philly that have started the program to see the results for myself.  From everything I know at this point, and talking to the most informed people about this product in the world, this is a game changer. 
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 09:36:56 PM »
Stop the presses!  Luckily there has been a product come to market in January that may be the proverbial “silver bullet” all superintendents have been searching for, well, forever.  It’s called PoaCure, chemical name methiozolin.  I heard about this product a while back but it has only been recently registered.  It slowly takes poa out of bentgrass(slowly), and could potentially be a great tool to keep it out.  There are roughly 250 golf courses who have used it throughout the USA.  Many as a test plot during the R&D phase. Here is the quote from the two most respected turf weed scientist in the USA...”it’s the greatest herbicide to come to market in my lifetime”.  I am going with the the company’s lead herbicide scientist next week to visit several courses in philly that have started the program to see the results for myself.  From everything I know at this point, and talking to the most informed people about this product in the world, this is a game changer.


It does work, however fairway applications will most likely be out of the question for most clubs due to cost (20-60k per year). Plus there's the problem of how to fill in the voids created by the dead and declining poa. Bentgrass will creep back into the voids but it's not an overnight thing. PoaCure apps will need to be combined with traditional cultural practices to quickly fill in the voided areas with desirable species.


That being said, it really could be the proverbial "game changer."
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2020, 10:04:02 PM »
I am located in Toronto so we have pretty much the same weather as upstate NY.  We have had issues with the poa on our greens dying out leading to poor turf quality on the greens with dead spots and bumpy greens.  This has improved since about July 20 as we have had more rain and the nights have been a bit cooler.  Verticutting and overseeding has helped.  So you are in pretty good shape if it has only affected your fairways and not your greens.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2020, 10:08:28 PM »
We have been talking about Poa Cure on this site for several years.  I saw impressive test plots at Northshore CC in Glenview maintained by Dan Donile several years ago.  So the news is the approval.  I concur that it is likely impractical for fairways even if removing poa were deemed important.  Seems terrific for greens.  Particularly newer greens where poa is first invading.  But the test plots I observed were on very old practice greens and the results were phenomenal.

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2020, 10:45:08 PM »
Stop the presses!  Luckily there has been a product come to market in January that may be the proverbial “silver bullet” all superintendents have been searching for, well, forever.  It’s called PoaCure, chemical name methiozolin.  I heard about this product a while back but it has only been recently registered.  It slowly takes poa out of bentgrass(slowly), and could potentially be a great tool to keep it out.  There are roughly 250 golf courses who have used it throughout the USA.  Many as a test plot during the R&D phase. Here is the quote from the two most respected turf weed scientist in the USA...”it’s the greatest herbicide to come to market in my lifetime”.  I am going with the the company’s lead herbicide scientist next week to visit several courses in philly that have started the program to see the results for myself.  From everything I know at this point, and talking to the most informed people about this product in the world, this is a game changer.


It does work, however fairway applications will most likely be out of the question for most clubs due to cost (20-60k per year). Plus there's the problem of how to fill in the voids created by the dead and declining poa. Bentgrass will creep back into the voids but it's not an overnight thing. PoaCure apps will need to be combined with traditional cultural practices to quickly fill in the voided areas with desirable species.


That being said, it really could be the proverbial "game changer."


The problem with the cultural practices is that You can’t do any of those until 2 weeks (minimum) post last application in the spring.  That puts you into almost summer weather.  Aerifying in early summer/late spring is very risky for some folks. 


If the club members can “take it on the chin” for a season with less than perfect conditions, the future dividends will be well worth it.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2020, 10:53:01 PM »
We have been talking about Poa Cure on this site for several years.  I saw impressive test plots at Northshore CC in Glenview maintained by Dan Donile several years ago.  So the news is the approval.  I concur that it is likely impractical for fairways even if removing poa were deemed important.  Seems terrific for greens.  Particularly newer greens where poa is first invading.  But the test plots I observed were on very old practice greens and the results were phenomenal.


With this product on new greens you should be able to keep the poa out forever theoretically......until resistance is developed.  There’s another product that’s in the works that’s supposed to be similar to methiozoline(Poacure) called cumyluron.  It could compliment a rotational herbicide program to keep poa out and keep resistance probability low.


If the combination of these two products can truly keep the poa out, it might be worth it the spray it wall to wall.  Time will tell.  There’s always a club that wants to be “the first”....
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2020, 06:41:25 AM »
Stop the presses!  Luckily there has been a product come to market in January that may be the proverbial “silver bullet” all superintendents have been searching for, well, forever.  It’s called PoaCure, chemical name methiozolin.  I heard about this product a while back but it has only been recently registered.  It slowly takes poa out of bentgrass(slowly), and could potentially be a great tool to keep it out.  There are roughly 250 golf courses who have used it throughout the USA.  Many as a test plot during the R&D phase. Here is the quote from the two most respected turf weed scientist in the USA...”it’s the greatest herbicide to come to market in my lifetime”.  I am going with the the company’s lead herbicide scientist next week to visit several courses in philly that have started the program to see the results for myself.  From everything I know at this point, and talking to the most informed people about this product in the world, this is a game changer.


It does work, however fairway applications will most likely be out of the question for most clubs due to cost (20-60k per year). Plus there's the problem of how to fill in the voids created by the dead and declining poa. Bentgrass will creep back into the voids but it's not an overnight thing. PoaCure apps will need to be combined with traditional cultural practices to quickly fill in the voided areas with desirable species.


That being said, it really could be the proverbial "game changer."



Some of this information always needs to be outlined better...


Tom is spot on. What is going to fill the voids & more importantly, how much poa population was there to begin with. Cost is not affordable to most, & in some cases would need to be followed by seed, fertilizer & water, depending on the decline.


John doesn't outline the fact that during the initial testing process, many Supts who thought they were "90% bentgrass" had much more poa than they thought, therefore caused significant issues. I think that this is why this product has been more marketed for greens, especially newer greens where poa populations are very small.


"Game Changer" is a world that is over used. There have been "5 game changer" type products or equipment in the last 5 years. I would be very cautious in intentionally trying to kill grass. Lot of testing needed before just spraying product everywhere. Again, I think its intention is for more recently seeded/regrassed courses where they know the poa population is very low. 
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2020, 07:52:57 AM »
Yeah, like I said, for guys with a significant poa population, they will have to convince their members to “take it on the chin” for some time to rid the greens of poa.  It takes time to promote filling in of the bare spots where poa has died.  For clubs with high % poa on their greens, this may be a multi year deal unless you play on them until they’re pretty bare then close for some time to reseed.  The problem is that this product has residual pre-emergent effects so seed timing, post application, will be important to understand. The take away here is that once it (poa) has been removed, the future to keep it out looks very promising.


For greens it’s not too big of a cost honestly.  approx 10k for 4 acres of greens.  Fairways is a different story.  There’s only a handful of folks who have sprayed it in fairways as of now.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2020, 02:10:44 PM »
Yeah, like I said, for guys with a significant poa population, they will have to convince their members to “take it on the chin” for some time to rid the greens of poa.  It takes time to promote filling in of the bare spots where poa has died.  For clubs with high % poa on their greens, this may be a multi year deal unless you play on them until they’re pretty bare then close for some time to reseed.  The problem is that this product has residual pre-emergent effects so seed timing, post application, will be important to understand. The take away here is that once it (poa) has been removed, the future to keep it out looks very promising.


For greens it’s not too big of a cost honestly.  approx 10k for 4 acres of greens.  Fairways is a different story.  There’s only a handful of folks who have sprayed it in fairways as of now.


Not trying to gang up on you John, but the treated areas I have seen were unputtable and uncupable with one application in fall of last year. They are still unputtable and uncupable. This is on a 60/40 or 50/50 bent/poa green. So what's the logic of playing on literally terrible greens for multiple seasons by applying now, vs. stripping and re-sodding within one season? Then using the product to preserve your new greens?



Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2020, 03:10:57 PM »
Tony,
No worries!  I enjoy the banter.  I agree with you that high poa contamination poses a big conundrum.  How do address the huge bare spots on a green thats, let’s say, 40%+ poa? I am curious as to see how fast a green can heal post application and how the herbicide affects seeding after the last application...?  The biggest question that still remains is “what percentage of poa dictates if you should spray or re-sod?”.  Can you close the course, seed, and then cover throughout the winter and be ready in spring?  Don’t know...How does the residual pre-emergent aspect effect bentgrass seeding? Not sure what the best plan of attack is here.  I want to find out though.  This product is amazing nonetheless.  The good news is that once it’s gone, theoretically, you could be able to keep it out. 
I am going to a few courses with the guy who developed it next week to see their progress and results.  I’ll report back once I see the situations and how they were handled.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2020, 05:32:25 PM »
I hope you do report back with what you are seeing out in the field. It would be really cool to see these different properties and the effects of the product. Enjoy your tour!
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2020, 04:29:47 AM »
Im always fascinated by the significance placed on a herbicide as being the silver bullet for poa control.


Unless the cultural practices that allowed poa to dominate in the first place are addressed, any chemical control will only ever be a temporary measure.


If it is utilised in conjunction with a shift in maintenance philosophies and viewed as "part" of a program, then the long term results may be much more successful. Reliance on methiozolin, or any other sole form of chemistry, as the cornerstone of a program carries a high likelihood of resistance developing


 

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2020, 08:07:51 AM »
Firstly to cover the OP. This summer has been particularly tough in the mid Atlantic and North East as there have been extended stretches of dry or wet weather or a combo of both. Rain has been very hit or miss but the heat set in for most of the summer with July breaking records in many areas. The courses just north of me had nearly 11" for rain from 8-1 to 8-4 while I "only" got the 5" they got from Isaias. My point is a lot of cool season turf is struggling right now and poa is especially having a hard time due to it's shallow roots and general dislike for hot and humid weather. It doesn't help that the last couple of summers have been wet and relatively cool so the turf overall hasn't been stressed as much, so now that it is, it isn't ready for it. The good thing is any area where the poa has died can be seeded to bentgrass and will not be an issue in the future. There are various methods so interseeding with slice seeding (verticutting) being one of them. There are a lot of other factors also that come into play - such as shade, drainage, aeration practices, fertility and chem programs, budget etc that dictate the ability to keep poa out - and it is difficult to get rid of poa from an existing stand, as there usually is a large seed bed.



I've been fortunate to have been at LedgeRock since it's grow in and been managing to favor bentgrass and therefore keep poa out. Yes at times the course is brown around the edges as we push the turf to keep it on the drier side but this stresses the poa and it dies out. I also use a high rate of paclobutrozol growth regulator which the poa doesn't like and helps the bentgrass be more competitive. A lot of people are using primo growth regulator in their programs also but I never have. I know I will take a beating on this from any turf person reading, but Primo is used to strengthen poa, so why anyone would us it in a program to favor bentgrass is still beyond me. Admittedly in a mixed stand it might make sense but trying to grow and keep two different grasses with different growth cycles consistent is next to impossible. Pick one and manage for it, although in a mixed stand it will look ugly until one of the grasses in in the majority. The quickest way is to regrass (assuming you're going to bentgrass) and then manage to keep the poa out from there. I'm happy to say that after 16 years at LedgeRock the fairways and tees are as good as 100% poa free.


I've taken a different philosophy on the greens as they are sand based and I can have a little more control but they have never seen a growth regulator and the poa has been kept out purely by managing for bentgrass. By not using growth regulators, the maintenance requirements of the greens are kept to a minimal and the greens speeds the club is renowned for are achieved with a simple mow and roll. Saying that we did lose a little ground this spring when it warmed up early and then stopped - which woke the poa up and got it growing while the bentgrass stayed mostly dormant. Coupled with an earlier than planned aeration, the poa population probably doubled in two months (from ~1% to ~2%). The 1% has been verified by PSU who are testing a poa control here. Thankfully I have been a test site for PoaCure so was able to get it when it became available and it was applied to all the greens this spring.


It is a great product. It seemed to work exceptionally quick this spring but I think it was due to a lot of the newer poa spots were of an annual variety so once the heat stress came, coupled with the herbicide, it killed the poa quickly. Most of the poa on the greens was no bigger than a dime so overall any death looked like an old ball mark. There were a few areas on collars where the populations were high. I've seen differing results here. In some areas the poa has faded out but in others it wiped out the large area of poa - but I think this is largely due to annual bluegrass weevil stressing the poa in these areas also. It sould be noted that ~30% death looks like 100% so knowing and being being honest to yourself about how much poa is there is important as what can seem like a small percentage can look like a lot.


Poacure is a game changer - I do hate to say that, but from three years of ever increasing trials it has done nothing unexpected. I even sprayed it over the heat of the summer (not recommended) to see what would happen and other than some light discoloration of the bentgrass, it was fine. I have seen some poa recover from the initial applicaitons so it defintely is a couple of years prodocol. As mentioned, I am worried about resistance in the long term but I'm told that it's mode of action means that it should always kill poa. Saying that, I know poa is a very adaptive plant so if one does squeak through then other options will be necessary. In one of the trials I did try a side by side test with some of the older poa controls with mixed results, while Poacure was the standout, some of the older ones like Prograss can still help at keeping populations in check even if they are not as effective as Poacure.


The cost pretty much makes it prohibitive for fairways but I can see it having a place where it is spot sprayed on the worst fairways or areas of fairways or maybe rotating through the course and do a few fairways each year to clean them up.


The current PSU trial is with another poa control product and so far it is looking like it is as good as Poacure, so if it makes it to market then I think it will be relatively easy to keep poa under control on greens. I'm thinking a program of Poacure for a few seasons, using betasan (a pre emergent) spring and fall every year to help prevent new seed popping, skipping poa control for a few seasons until populations get to 2% again, use the new product and then repeating the process will become a cost effective method to keep it under control.


Here are a few pics of Poacure in action from early in the summer.
https://twitter.com/alangfitz/status/1278671155793219585
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2020, 09:08:42 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2020, 02:11:18 PM »
Any info on the toxicity of Poa Cure?  Here in Canada we have gotten strict about usage of pesticides and herbicides and they are completely banned for residential lawns, but golf courses can still use them upon certification.  I would bet that Europe is even stricter.

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2020, 02:29:38 PM »
I've taken a different philosophy on the greens as they are sand based and I can have a little more control but they have never seen a growth regulator and the poa has been kept out purely by managing for bentgrass. By not using growth regulators, the maintenance requirements of the greens are kept to a minimal and the greens speeds the club is renowned for are achieved with a simple mow and roll. Saying that we did lose a little ground this spring when it warmed up early and then stopped - which woke the poa up and got it growing while the bentgrass stayed mostly dormant. Coupled with an earlier than planned aeration, the poa population probably doubled in two months (from ~1% to ~2%). The 1% has been verified by PSU who are testing a poa control here. Thankfully I have been a test site for PoaCure so was able to get it when it became available and it was applied to all the greens this spring.


Great post Alan, the part about no PGRs on greens got my attention. What HOC do you mow at for most of the summer? Range? What's your range of applied N and do you collect clipping yield data?





Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2020, 07:04:25 AM »
Any info on the toxicity of Poa Cure?  Here in Canada we have gotten strict about usage of pesticides and herbicides and they are completely banned for residential lawns, but golf courses can still use them upon certification.  I would bet that Europe is even stricter.


I have a few friends in Canada that contacted me on it's availability. I believe they will eventually try and get it registered up there but they had to jump through a lot of hoops to get it approved in the US, so Canada won't be easy. I haven't seen anything negative from using it. This podcast goes into some detail on the product and what they went though (like needing to redo toxicity tests on fish as the Asian data wasn't allowed in the US) to get it registered.


https://www.turfnet.com/podcasts/rossi/askew_poaannua/
« Last Edit: August 15, 2020, 07:21:02 AM by Alan FitzGerald »
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining Poa in the fairways
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2020, 07:20:04 AM »
I've taken a different philosophy on the greens as they are sand based and I can have a little more control but they have never seen a growth regulator and the poa has been kept out purely by managing for bentgrass. By not using growth regulators, the maintenance requirements of the greens are kept to a minimal and the greens speeds the club is renowned for are achieved with a simple mow and roll. Saying that we did lose a little ground this spring when it warmed up early and then stopped - which woke the poa up and got it growing while the bentgrass stayed mostly dormant. Coupled with an earlier than planned aeration, the poa population probably doubled in two months (from ~1% to ~2%). The 1% has been verified by PSU who are testing a poa control here. Thankfully I have been a test site for PoaCure so was able to get it when it became available and it was applied to all the greens this spring.


Great post Alan, the part about no PGRs on greens got my attention. What HOC do you mow at for most of the summer? Range? What's your range of applied N and do you collect clipping yield data?


Tom, the hoc on greens is .095-.1 all year with an agressive weile roller - I will raise it if I'm seeing stress but I haven't had any need to in the last 3-4 years and we roll most days. My program is basically everything you are not supposed to do..... I guess N is technically my growth regulator but I don't feed to a number, I just monitor the growth and to what the plant is visually telling me, so the N number varies from year to year and how the turf is responding. It's been as low as 3lbs/m to as high as 5#/m. I don't waste time collecting yield data but a quick look in the buckets can tell what I need to know.


The greens usually lose ~0.5ft during the day but there never is a complaint and I think that is an acceptable loss during the day.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece